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Ramit unpacks how to manage money as a couple after a job loss and what happens when one partner carries most of the financial responsibility while the other starts stepping back.
Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich talks with Isabelle and Ryan, 37 and 40, who have been married for 12 years and have a four-year-old daughter. After Ryan was laid off from his $150,000 software engineering job, Isabelle became the sole earner. They have around $1.2 million in assets and an $800,000 net worth, but two mortgages and fixed costs at 83% of their income have left them trying to figure out how to manage their money on one income.
Their biggest challenge isn’t simply how to budget or save money. Isabelle manages most of their financial planning and decision-making, while Ryan struggles with money anxiety, guilt around spending, and feeling shut down when he tries to get involved. Ramit helps them understand how childhood scarcity shaped their relationship with money, how to communicate about finances without falling into a parent-child dynamic, and how reducing their fixed expenses could give them more freedom to actually enjoy the money they’ve built.
In this episode we uncover:
- How to manage money as a couple after a job loss
- How to budget on one income without letting financial anxiety take over
- Why Isabelle feels exhausted managing their financial future
- Why Ryan feels guilty spending money despite their $800K net worth
- How a $3,000 espresso machine exposes his money anxiety
- Why their fixed costs have reached 83% of their income
- How two mortgages are putting pressure on their monthly budget
- How childhood scarcity shaped their relationship with money
- Why their dynamic has started to feel like a parent-child relationship
- How clear money rules and lower fixed expenses could help them become a team
Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction
(02:00) Why Isabelle feels responsible for their financial future
(04:00) The purchase that exposes Ryan’s money anxiety
(09:50) How losing his $150K job changed their roles
(39:00) Ramit opens up their numbers
(48:00) Why they’re paying two mortgages
(01:04:00) How childhood scarcity shaped their money dynamic
(01:23:00) The parent-child dynamic they’ve fallen into
(01:38:00) Ryan and Isabelle make a new financial plan
(02:07:00) Follow-ups
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Transcript:
[00:00:00]
Isabelle: There’s this real concern if I die, he’s SOL.
Ryan: I got laid off, then I kind of fell off and I’m just like, okay, I don’t deserve anything.
Isabelle: I’m the one that’s making a lot of the decisions, and that gets really tiring.
Ryan: Every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I’m shut down and I’m just belittled for it, so I just don’t.
Ramit: It seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don’t approve of it.
Isabelle: I think that sounds accurate.
Ramit: You feel the need to control and direct his involvement with money.
Isabelle: I mean, I do like being in control.
Ryan: Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I’ll make the wrong decision because I feel like my decisions are judged quite frequently.
Ramit: You have 83% fixed costs. You have no savings, no money for vacation. Your guilt-free spending is getting chipped away.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: And if one of you loses your job again, we got problems.
Isabelle: I mean it.
Ramit: In lots of relationships, one person ends up handling the money, and we see it all the time on this podcast. One person, often the woman in a heterosexual relationship, [00:01:00] pays the bills, makes the plans, and thinks about the financial future.
At first, feels normal. It’s even helpful. But here’s the problem. The more one person takes over, the easier it is for the other person to step back and even stop trying. So eventually, what you will find is one partner thinking, “Why am I the only one dealing with this?” And the other’s thinking, “She’s got it under control.
She’s so much better at this than I am.” That is exactly what’s happening with Isabelle and Ryan. They’re 37 and 40 years old. They’ve been married for 12 years, with a four-year-old daughter, and Ryan lost his job six months ago, but it turns out their money problems started way before that. Isabelle feels like she is carrying their whole financial future all by herself.
Interestingly, Ryan says every time he tries to get involved, he feels judged or shut down. I wanna know how they ended up stuck in these roles. Why did money become something stressful instead of something they do together? [00:02:00] And ultimately, what is it gonna take for them to start working as a team? Let’s meet Isabelle and Ryan.
Isabelle, you wrote something on your application that caught my eye. You said, quote, “I’m exhausted being the only one actively thinking about and managing our financial future.” Tell me more about that.
Isabelle: I’m the one that’s making a lot of the decisions, the, the day-to-day decisions, the big decisions, the long-term decisions, and that gets really tiring.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: But then the other thing is that I feel like we’re, we’ve been in, and are in a little bit of a limbo because he’s, you know, uh, Ryan lost his job a while ago now, and I think that that’s led to a lot of stress and anxiety about, uh, money, about finances, about we can or cannot spend on this, about trying to find work.
And I been doing a lot of future planning and a lot of thinking, and there’s this very real concern I have that if I die, he’s SOL.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Right? Like, there’s this notion that I, I’ve, I’ve started, you know, thinking about, like, getting a will [00:03:00] set up, getting, like, life insurance. I’ve been thinking about all of those things, and that’s made me realize that I think I’m holding up a lot of the financial structure in the household.
I would like trying to move towards a place where I could know that if I were gone, I could trust him to continue that moving forward.
Ryan: I’m mostly here for her. I’m not gonna lie about that. Okay. Um, I’m the classic money anxiety person. I would definitely like to find, like, a more of a comfort point, like she was saying.
Um, we do have conversations about money from time to time.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: I feel like sometimes it improves in the short term, and then it kind of falls apart again.
Ramit: What’s it?
Ryan: The whole, like, um, aura or, like, teamwork or anything like that. Um, one of the things that we kind of run into is the concept of spending makes me nervous, I guess, and I unconsciously, over the course of the next few weeks or so, kind of gradually fall off.
Isabelle: I feel like we’re not… We’re doing okay. You know, I still feel like even on a single income, where, where we are, like, I think we’re okay, and I think he’s, a lot of the times, carrying a lot of stress [00:04:00] and anxiety about small day-to-day spending that I think is trivial.
Ramit: What would… What’s an example of something small that he focuses on?
Isabelle: I, I He just said, “I knew that was going to come up,” ’cause I told you it was gonna come up. We were at a home goods store just last weekend. Mm-hmm. He went off to look at some things while I was with our daughter, and he sent me a picture of two ice cream scoops.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: One was $6, one was $14. I was with our daughter.
I couldn’t really think about it, focus on it. I was just like, “Just get whichever. Just, just get whichever. Probably the one with the little swoopy handle that we like.” And then I didn’t really pay attention to it. He put one in the cart. When we get to the register, it was the $6 one.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: And I sa- I think I said as we were paying, like, “Did you really get that one?”
Like, and I didn’t see this until after. He texted me, um, when he was comparing the two like, “I feel poor.”
Ramit: Uh-huh.
Isabelle: And then I was just… And, and I still sit and think to myself, like, we- are not poor.
Ramit: Hmm.
Isabelle: It’s, it’s… I don’t think about those things. Yeah. I don’t stress, I don’t stress about that level of purchase, and [00:05:00] I feel like he does, and it sounds…
I don’t know. It just feels like a very tiring way to live. But-
Ramit: Uh, Ryan, what was going on when you were at the store looking at the scoops?
Ryan: Well, I just feel like, um, a lot of those little decisions add up. So when it’s looking at, like, those smaller day-to-day things, I do feel like with my income gone, it was fairly large and sizable.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: Kind of just felt like maybe it’s a better idea to spend a little less. Um, $6 here, $6 there, over the course of, like, a week or months does add up.
Ramit: When you both hear the description of what happened at the store with the ice cream scoops, and you zoom out, what role is each of you playing in that dynamic?
Ryan: I’d say that she’s kind of taking on almost a maternal role if I’m asking for permission, which she shouldn’t be.
Ramit: And what role are you taking on then?
Ryan: Um, like a child or…
Ramit: Yeah. Parent-child dynamic. Yeah. He, yeah. I think that’s quite accurate. He was, he was
Isabelle: asking for permission, and I- Yeah … and I just, like, I didn’t care.
Mm. To be honest. Mm. It was just- Right, and
Ryan: you didn’t care,
Isabelle: so I went with the less value one. Just grab one of them. Like-
Ryan: I’m
Ramit: not so sure- Yeah … I agree that you didn’t [00:06:00] care.
Isabelle: You don’t think so?
Ramit: No. Mm. Because what happened at the checkout?
Isabelle: You’re right. You’re right.
Ramit: What did you say? “
Isabelle: Did you really get that one?”
And it was very much a, a judgy tone. I c- I, I don’t feel like I need to give permission for those kinds of purchases. I kind of wish he’d just… And we’ve talked about this before, like, there’s a lot of instances where he’ll get the cheaper item, and, and I’ll say, like, “Why didn’t you just get the nicer one that’ll last longer or the, you know, that, that you actually wanted instead of the cheaper thing that will then either not be useful?”
So what role are you playing? I, I don’t know. What-
Ramit: Think about it
Isabelle: I feel like oftentimes I’m the decision-maker in things. Mm-hmm. And I feel like I’m the one who can make the informed decisions-
Ramit: Mm-hmm …
Isabelle: because I, I have a better understanding of where our finances are. Um, I just don’t wanna be making the informed decisions all the time. That may- I’m
Ramit: not interested in what you want and don’t want.
Okay. I’m only interested right now in what role were you playing.
Isabelle: I mean, if we’re following along with the same dynamic, I am the parent in that- Mm-hmm … [00:07:00] dynamic.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. And you’re-
Isabelle: It’s the same way that, like, my, my daughter might come up and say, “Can I get this or that?” And I’m making that decision.
Ryan: Well, I feel like there was a right decision, obviously.
‘Cause she got upset when I got the cheaper ice cream scoop. Oh,
Ramit: so
Ryan: she- So- The right decision- And I was leaning towards the cheaper scoop, but I just asked her which one she wanted, and she said she didn’t care, so I bought the cheaper one ’cause I felt more comfortable with it, and then she kinda lashed out about it.
Ramit: Why’d you, why’d you even ask?
Ryan: I don’t know. It’s just-
Ramit: Think about it.
Ryan: Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I’ll make the wrong decision because I feel like I’m, my decisions are judged quite frequently.
Ramit: Hmm. Okay. Money obviously makes both of you uncomfortable. Is that fair to say?
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Ryan says yes.
Isabelle?
Isabelle: I, uh-
Ramit: If not, feel free to disagree with me.
Isabelle: I don’t feel like it does.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: It, it does come up enough. Like, I know that, um, one of the things that you talk about is guilt-free spending. We’ve jokingly said that, or she’s jokingly brought up that, uh, there’s no such thing as guilt-free spending. [00:08:00]
Isabelle: For him.
For you. For him
Ryan: specifically. If I buy myself something nice, I dwell on it and feel guilty about it for like- Forever … the rest of my life. Pretty much,
Ramit: yeah. Okay. Is it when you buy something nice, it’s racked with guilt, or is it when you buy anything?
Ryan: I’d say anything in the short term, but in the longer term, the larger purchases more so.
Okay. Like, I’m a huge, um… This is an example of a larger purchase. I’m a huge coffee person. Mm-hmm. I used to run a roastery, and I bought a $3,000 espresso machine back when I was working, and we could afford it. Mm-hmm. It wasn’t a big deal, but I still feel like it was a silly thing for me to buy in terms of the cost, and I feel guilty that I bought that.
Ramit: Hmm. Uh, how does guilt show up for you? Where do you feel it?
Ryan: It’s like a heavy feeling in the chest- Mm-hmm … I suppose. Or sometimes I feel like maybe I’ll misconstrue a comment or a little joke that she made, and this is where it gets really bad in terms of money, and I’ll feel like I’m being attacked, and I’ll shut down.
Like, what’s an example? She’ll make a little comment about the cost of, like, my espresso machine, and she’s just, like, half-joking and didn’t really even give it any thought, and I’ll feel like she’s been dwelling on it for [00:09:00] months or something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I’ll just, like, either walk away or give, like, one-word answers and just kinda-
Ramit: Got it
Ryan: shut down. Do
Ramit: you remember what kind of, um, joking comment you make?
Isabelle: I, I don’t know. I’m trying to think about one that might have been. I know we had a couple of friends over lately, and I, I made some comment about the $3,000 espresso machine and the very fancy grinder and very… Like, there, there’s a lot.
Mm-hmm. What’d
Ramit: you say?
Isabelle: Uh, I said something like, “Oh, I think we have about $5,000 worth of coffee equipment here.”
Ramit: Hmm. And do you agree that when he purchased it, you both could afford it?
Isabelle: Yes, I, I do think so.
Ryan: But then I got laid off, which is becoming- Yeah … more common in my field, and then I kinda fell off, and I’m just like, “Okay, I don’t deserve anything,” and I didn’t really buy anything.
I didn’t feel like it was the time for that sort of purchasing.
Ramit: When did that happen?
Ryan: Uh, probably about seven months ago.
Ramit: Okay. Sucks.
Ryan: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah, I vividly remember.
Ramit: What was your first thought when that happened?
Ryan: You know, I wasn’t actually upset at first, which is funny because, um, she’s mentioned before that we might be fine if I did a [00:10:00] career pivot or went for slightly less money and became more comfortable.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: But I have a hard time coming to terms with reducing my earning power that much ’cause- Why? Well, this is a career that I’ve had for, like, 11 years, right? Like, I’ve been a software engineer for 11 years. It pays pretty well in the past. Um, it had a lot of flexibility in terms of remote hours and things like that, which is changing.
Ramit: Did you feel anything at all, or were you like, “Okay”?
Ryan: I was like, “Okay.” I mean, to be honest, it didn’t hit me quite as hard the first time ’cause I was getting the severance, which covered the first few months. Mm-hmm. And I wasn’t happy there, if I’m totally being honest with myself.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: Like, I was doing fine as far as every metric went, but I didn’t feel like that was valued despite the communication.
Do you feel it’s
Ramit: common that you stay in situations that you don’t like?
Ryan: Yeah, probably in terms-
Ramit: Career? Any other parts of life?
Ryan: Career primarily. Um, one thing we talked about when I was looking for employment is I wanted to move, and this is a huge life decision, so I don’t blame her for disagreeing, but I wanted to move a little bit further west so I could look at more jobs [00:11:00] out and, like, um, out closer to the coast, which is where a lot of the tech companies are.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: And she just pretty much just said no- Mm … and then we were done with the conversation.
Ramit: And that’s where you are today, like-
Isabelle: Yes, that’s where we
Ramit: are today … you say no, you still wanna do that for better job opportunities. Is that right?
Ryan: I was tempted, yes. I- it’s something I wanted to at least talk about or put on paper, but it just felt like instantly dismissive of my career when-
Ramit: Right
Ryan: being, like, honest. We moved to California for her career, and she won’t move 20 minutes west for me.
Ramit: I see. Okay, um, Isabelle, what do you do for a living?
Isabelle: I am a professor at a university nearby.
Ramit: Got it. And how long have you two been married for?
Isabelle: 12 years and a couple weeks.
Ramit: Oh, cool. Congrats. Kids?
Isabelle: One child, yes.
How old? A, a four-year-old daughter.
Ramit: Okay, great. All right. How do decisions get made in your household?
Isabelle: It’s probably going to be me for- Okay … for most s- for most decisions, I would say. We have our, our financial system set up in a particular. That was probably [00:12:00] entirely me, which was setting up, like, a joint checking account, setting up credit cards connected to that for each.
We each have individual checking and credit cards, like, separately, where I don’t look at his, I don’t track it, I don’t- Mm-hmm … do anything with it. Like, that, that was all set up by me. I’m the only one looking at things like life insurance. I’m the only one looking at things like a will. Um-
Ramit: When was the first time you had a serious conversation about money?
Ryan: Probably when we were getting married. We had, like, the s- the, the standard discussion- What’s that? -about, like, what we’re comfortable spending at each time, um, what we’re looking for in terms of where we wanna live in the future, all of that.
Ramit: How much you’re comfortable spending? What do you remember saying?
Ryan: At the time, we were making considerably less- Oh, yeah … so it was, like, $50.
Isabelle: You’re right. I remember that. I remember that. It was… Yeah, yeah.
Ramit: So you sh-
Isabelle: It was premarital counseling I-
Ramit: isn’t it kind of interesting that now, 12 years later, you are texting about a $6 ice cream scooper?
Ryan: Yeah, that’s fair. I don’t think it’s about the ice cream [00:13:00] scoop.
Um, it’s probably just because I feel guilty about some of the other larger purchases, and maybe I just make assumptions based on that.
Ramit: I kind of love the idea that they were both in the store, and he’s agonizing over whether to buy ice cream scoop number one or ice cream scoop number two. It tells me so much about their relationship.
What layers are you noticing here? Here’s what I’m noticing. I’m noticing that instead of being curious of her partner when it comes to how he chooses to spend money, she kind of puts him down, and that makes me understand why he might not wanna participate in money in this relationship. She feels like she does everything, but also little jabs after checkout, “Oh, you bought that one?”
Quite interesting. So I’m starting to suspect that whatever dynamic they have with money is co-created, and definitely a lot of it is due to control. Let’s find out if I’m right. I’m gonna take a wild guess. Maybe you’ve been putting off seeing a doctor for a [00:14:00] while for some unexplained condition. Hey, why is my left eye blurry?
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Ryan: at iwt.com/expertsession
Ramit: What else did you talk about in the survey? Investing- I
Isabelle: don’t think it was any- …
Ramit: kids.
Isabelle: Some of it was that detail stuff, and then some of it was larger picture, like-
Ramit: Wait, this doesn’t sound very substantive.
Isabelle: No, I don’t think I- No, it wasn’t
Ryan: super substantive. We have had discussions about saving as well, and-
Ramit: What do you talk about? [00:18:00]
Ryan: Well, usually it falls back on her. I end up feeling kinda dumb, to be blunt. Like, I’ll bring up something like, um, “Maybe we should, like, start investing in stock.” But that’s the absolute worst thing you can do.
And I’ll be like, “Okay.” I don’t know that
Isabelle: I phrased it like that.
Ryan: You pretty much said that. Okay. What did you say then?
Ramit: Actually, yeah. Let’s recreate- Let’s recreate this conversation. So when did this happen? I like this.
Isabelle: Oh, it was probably a couple weeks ago, wasn’t
Ramit: it? Perfect. Okay. Who, who brought it up?
Ryan: I did- Okay
’cause I was trying to look at, like, getting more involved in money, ’cause she wanted to talk about it.
Ramit: Can you recreate it and I will just listen? Do it as realistically as possible.
Ryan: I was wondering if maybe we should set some money aside, and I could start handling, like, investments for us and kind of research it and figure that out and make an individual stock portfolio.
Isabelle: Are you thinking about, like, individual stocks, like selecting-
Ryan: Not individual ones …
Isabelle: different places?
Ryan: Not like I’ve got a good feeling about Disney or anything.
Isabelle: Well, that’s what, that’s what wasn’t clear to me. Because when I think about investing, it’s, like, investing in, you know, probably a [00:19:00] retirement account and thinking about funds that are diversified.
Ryan: Right. Well, we’re not really recreating the conversation then.
Isabelle: I know. Maybe we should have like- But I’m realizing that there was a misunderstanding there from the beginning.
Ramit: Well, what, what’s with the performance? I don’t- I feel like you’re both performing for me, and I’m not interested- No … in a performance.
Because if y’all are here to put on a performance, then you’re gonna walk out with me reacting to your performance. Yeah. I don’t really think you want that.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Do you think that we could recreate that conversation as it actually happened?
Ryan: I was thinking about putting some money aside just to start investing in stocks on my own, so I’m kind of handling a bit more.
Isabelle: I mean, I don’t know if that’s a great idea, honestly, because, uh … I, I can’t. I honestly can’t remember what I said, Ramit.
Ramit: Yes, you can.
Isabelle: No, I can’t. I’m trying to think about what I said. You said
Ryan: it’s one of the worst things we could do.
Isabelle: That’s what you’re remembering of
Ramit: it. Well, let me tell you what’s going on here.
I suspect that you think it’s gonna look bad if you actually- It’s- … say what you said, and so you’re trying to mask it by saying something polite. It’s quite
Isabelle: possible, yes. I don’t remember saying that, but maybe [00:20:00] I did, and I should trust your memory of it. That’s fair. I probably did say that’s one of, one of the worst ways that you could invest, and I don’t like hearing that coming out of my mouth now.
Ramit: That’s fine.
Ryan: I just feel like that’s an example. Like, every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I’m shut down, and I’m just belittled for it, so I just don’t.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Yeah, and I’m hearing that and just feeling like shit about it ’cause that’s not what I wanna do either.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: But …
Ramit: Finish the sentence.
Isabelle: I mean, I feel like I’ve put in a lot of time and effort to try and be more informed about things, and so I’m asking for his help on decisions, but he’s not at that same level of informed, and then that’s frustrating, too. I don’t know where to go from there.
Ramit: It seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don’t approve of it.
Isabelle: I think that sounds accurate.
Ramit: Ice cream scoop all the way up to investments.
Isabelle: I think that’s accurate.
Ramit: So what do you wanna do [00:21:00] about that? Because I can give you a bunch of whiz-bang stuff. Oh, let’s look at the numbers, look at the percentages. Doesn’t change anything. What is going on that you feel the need to control and direct-
Isabelle: Mm-hmm
Ramit: his involvement with money?
Isabelle: I mean, I do like being in control. I feel like currently I’m more knowledgeable about it, and I, I, I think that that’s something that I try to leverage. But I am realizing that I probably need to just step back.
Ramit: Really?
Isabelle: I worry that if I step back, then things won’t get done or things won’t
I don’t wanna say be done right, but be done right.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um-
Ramit: And if that happens?
Isabelle: Then we’re not going to be in a good financial situation moving forward. We won’t have a secure future, or we won’t have savings, or we won’t have something to fall back on for our daughter, so[00:22:00]
Ramit: Keep going
Isabelle: That’s what gives me anxiety at night is, is thinking that if I step back, things are going to fall apart
Ramit: Mm-hmm
Isabelle: And I don’t like that feeling either, but, but it’s very hard to stop
Ramit: Y- you’ve heard stories of, um, wife telling her husband, like, “Clean the kitchen counter” Mm-hmm And then he cleans it.
She goes, “You didn’t do it the right way. Now I need to do it” Mm-hmm This is kind of a-
Isabelle: Don’t look at me
Ramit: Wait, did this happen? Yes.
Ryan: Well, sort of. Um, she says that I make the bed wrong, so any time I make the bed, she’ll go up and remake it. Or any time I sweep, she’ll re-sweep.
Isabelle: Hmm. It’s a pattern, and it’s not just in finances.
Ramit: Talk me through it
Isabelle: If I want it to be done and if I want it to be done correctly, sometimes it’s easier to do it myself
Ramit: Okay, so just do it
Isabelle: Then, but I’m tired all the time, and I’m exhausted, and I don’t have the time to be doing all of these things, and I don’t want to feel like if I make the wrong decision, it’s all entirely my fault
Ramit: What do you get out of being a martyr?[00:23:00]
Isabelle: I don’t know. I don’t know
Ramit: Think about it
Isabelle: A sense of
It’s not satisfaction, but a sense of contribution, a sense of like- Mm-hmm … I’m putting everything out there and no one can say that I’m not, you know, doing X, Y, or Z, trying to
Ramit: do this. Because I’m working. I’m, I’m taking care of our daughter. I’m doing the finances. Right now I’m the breadwinner because he doesn’t have a job.
I’m even cleaning the kitchen counter the right way.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: It feel good?
Isabelle: I don’t think it’s… No.
Ramit: Hmm.
Isabelle: Ugh. I
Ramit: think it feels kind of good in a way.
Isabelle: There’s probably some truth to that, yeah. Hmm. Because I’m, I’m very accustomed to always being on top of things and always being productive and always, always, always, always moving.
Part of that is probably coming from the fact that I was functionally an only child of immigrant parents who did not speak English.
Ramit: Okay. Got it.
Isabelle: Um, and so from a [00:24:00] very, very, very young age, I was the main translator. From the age of 11, I knew our parents’, our mortgage better than my parents did. Like I, I, I was very accustomed to that and I’ve always Had that type of control in that respect.
Ramit: What’s the downside of trying to take on control in every part of your life?
Isabelle: I get burnt out. Mm-hmm. And I get exhausted.
Ramit: What else?
Isabelle: Well, like I said, I, I always kind of have this fear of I’m the only one making the decisions, and what if I’m doing something wrong and there’s no one… You know, I don’t have a, a cross-check or, or some- someone to have input and validate or challenge decisions that may not be correct.
Ramit: Okay. What else? I
Isabelle: mean, one of the things that I worry about too is my daughter seeing that and then replicating it herself, ’cause I’m replicating my own patterns, and I know that to some extent.
Ramit: She’s four, right?
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: She sees it already.
Isabelle: Yep.
Ramit: What about your partner?
Isabelle: Well, I think that he’s starting to…
Well, not starting to, but I think getting to a point where he feels like his input isn’t valued and his decisions aren’t valued.
Ramit: So therefore he…? [00:25:00]
Isabelle: Shuts down.
Ramit: Yeah. Disempowered. Says, like, “I can’t even get an ice cream scooped the right way, so you deal with it.”
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Why not just keep doing this the rest of your life?
Isabelle: The big thing for me and the thing that I, the reason that I want to try and to, to, to make progress towards breaking these patterns is because I think a lot about our daughter. Mm-hmm. Like, that’s, that’s really the main thing for me. I feel like if it was just me and him-
Ramit: Mm-hmm … I,
Isabelle: I feel like I probably would be okay to continue this on.
But, A, I don’t want her to grow up and feel like she has to do the same thing, ’cause it’s tiring. But then the other thing that I worry about is, like, if I walk out of the studio today and get hit by a bus- Mm-hmm … and that’s something we need to think about, but, like, right now our retirement plan is primarily my pension.
Mm-hmm. Like, my income would fall through. All of… You know, so that’s, that’s the other thing that I worry about too. Like, if something were to happen to me, then this whole structure falls apart.
Ryan: I warn you, I’d be upset, but I think we would carry on in some, to some degree. Most of our passwords are, like, in a vault, et [00:26:00] cetera.
Um, and my current financial situation is pretty largely determined by where we’re located as well. So if I was able to take Sophia and move, we could probably find something else. But, like, we’d figure something out is what I’m saying. I, I have thought about it. It’s not like I go through and I brainstorm for it, but I don’t think we’d be completely screwed.
Ramit: How do you receive that, Isabelle?
Isabelle: I don’t know if I believe it necessarily.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. Why do you think she doesn’t necessarily believe you?
Ryan: She doesn’t have a lot of faith in my decision-making- Okay … or a lot of what I do.
Ramit: Do you demonstrate engagement and excellence with money?
Ryan: No, but I feel like any time I try to, I just kinda get shut down, and I don’t like debating, so…
And she’s much stronger when it comes to that.
Ramit: Mm. Well- Morbid or not, one way to win the debate is if your partner’s dead. There’s no one to debate with anymore. I’ll do it my way.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Who else? Yeah. I would prefer not to [00:27:00] get to that level.
Isabelle: I, I
Ramit: would
Isabelle: also
Ramit: prefer- What do you think? …
Isabelle: not to get to that.
Ramit: I would prefer not for my wife- I would prefer-
to die in order for me to have a way to engage with money.
Ryan: That’s true. I mean, I’d still be uncomfortable, but I mean, I was, I was in my 20s when we were married. It’s not like I was completely
Ramit: They seem like real concerns, Isabelle.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: I’m worried about this, I’m worried about that. You worry a lot, right?
Isabelle: I feel like when we were dual income and I f- you know, when I was maxing out his 401, when we had all of this set up, when I had my- Mm. Like, I feel like I, I wasn’t worrying about it as much then.
Ramit: You’re telling me that you were not stressed or worried about things in your household when he had a job?
Isabelle: That’s true, I think.
Ramit: I don’t believe that. You
Isabelle: don’t think so?
Ramit: No way. Not in a million years.
Ryan: I, I well agree with that to some extent. I-
Ramit: Did she worry before when you had a job or no?
Ryan: I think she did. Um, we were, um, dual income-
Ramit: Mm-hmm …
Ryan: and we were making considerably more than we needed to.
Ramit: And?
Ryan: And [00:28:00] honestly, in her case, it paid off because I,
Ramit: I lost my job at this point.
I, I just wanna know, was she worried or not?
Ryan: Yes.
Ramit: Okay. What is this? What’s with the masks? The stories you’re telling yourself, “I don’t worry.” I
Isabelle: don’t
Ramit: worry. What, what, what’s, what’s going on here?
Isabelle: I don’t know, maybe it’s the story that I wish I was telling-
Ramit: Uh-huh …
Isabelle: instead of the one that I am. Which is
Ramit: I, I was calm, I was cool and collected.
Right, right. But then this thing happened to him, and now I’m forced to be worried.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Have you all been to therapy?
Ryan: I’ve been to individual therapy, but we haven’t done couples therapy.
Ramit: Why?
Isabelle: I mean, I suggested it once
Ryan: You suggested it and then stormed off after a bit of
Isabelle: an argument about money Yes, ’cause I was very frustrated and upset at that point in time What
Ramit: was
Isabelle: going on in that conversation?
I, I think I’d asked him something about, like, how his job search was going or, you know, something to that effect, and it felt like he responded in a very elevated manner. Like, it felt like he kind of snapped a little bit. Yeah. And then I snapped back- Mm-hmm … and said, [00:29:00] “I think we need to go to therapy.”
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: And I don’t know that you… I don’t know if you responded. I feel like I just blacked out and left.
Ramit: You just stormed off and didn’t wanna talk-
Isabelle: Yeah, I just left … so I just
Ryan: kinda let you be eventually.
Isabelle: And then we didn’t bring it up again.
Ryan: Yeah. And I feel like, um, for me, I’d just been ghosted after a, a second or third round interview, and I was kind of not feeling great, so maybe there was a little bit more emotion in my voice at that point-
Ramit: Mm-hmm
Ryan: that wasn’t intended or directed towards her.
Isabelle: I think maybe there was stress and worry, but there was also more positive components to it than there are now. I feel like I was worrying about, you know, are we setting aside enough for, for retirement? Like, am I structuring these savings in a way that makes sense?
But there was also this trade-off of, “Oh, hey, but if we do this, we can also travel,” or, “Hey, if we do this, we can also, you know, do these other positive things.”
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: And I feel like what’s been lost more so is I’m not thinking about that anymore. As much- The
Ryan: positive parts.
Isabelle: Yeah. Like, I, I feel like some of the extra income and some of the [00:30:00] extra that we had was going towards-
Ryan: Fun
Isabelle: fun. Quote, unquote fun. And now we’re in a position where, like, I feel like I’ve cut all of that, and what’s left-
Ramit: Mm-hmm …
Isabelle: is this, and it feels much heavier.
Ramit: Mm. If and when Ryan gets a job, that you will both feel good about money?
Isabelle: I think I would feel better, but I think I’m also in a position now where I still…
Like, this, this is, this is a new threat or a new anxiety that’s been introduced where I- I’m still thinking about, like, are our systems set up well enough? Is he set up well enough so that we could move forward?
Ramit: What’s your answer to my question? Would you feel good about money?
Isabelle: See, I wanna say yes, but the answer is probably not immediately or not easily.
Ramit: I think the answer is no.
Isabelle: I, yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. I, I don’t know why it’s so difficult to acknowledge there are parts of yourself that may be at odds with the way that you wanna present yourself.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Mm. I feel like I’m battling with a ghost right now. Every question I ask, I’m [00:31:00] getting defensive reactions and, “Well, I, I should feel like that.
I like to think I would feel like that.” But-
Isabelle: Yeah …
Ramit: it’s all a bit of a show. And I wonder if you do that here, how much of that is happening when the two of you talk to each other.
Ryan: Yeah, I mean, that’s quite possible. You brought up the example of would she be worried about money. I think we both would be anyway because we were.
We were super comfortable basically. Like- Mm-hmm … we had twice the income we have now, and our expenses were pretty minimal. Um, we were contributing, like, above advised levels to, like, our- Mm-hmm … retirement. And I still felt like I had, like, no decision-making ability. I mean, when, when I bought the $3,000 espresso machine, I felt like crap.
Yeah. And I still do, like, two years, two, three years later so.
Ramit: So you’ll– Like, the fixation on the income without actually s- focusing on what’s really going on here, to me-
Isabelle: Yeah …
Ramit: it’s not adding up. Here’s what I’d like to do. Mm-hmm. I want you [00:32:00] to go outside and have a really honest conversation about what you wanna get out of this.
Because if you would like to continue, I would love to continue with you. Mm-hmm. I think there’s a lot of layers to dig into here. But if we’re gonna keep up the show, it’s not for me Let’s take a few minutes, they’ll escort you out, and then we’ll come back and let me know what you decide. Okay? I’m being a little tough on them.
You know why? Because they are both wearing masks, almost like it’s a performance. Now, I’m not sure if they know they are or not, but either way, I am not connecting with who they really are, so I’m effectively shaking them because I wanna see that mask fall off. I don’t mind who they are beneath it.
Everyone does stuff that’s embarrassing. Everyone says stuff that’s maybe not perfectly politically correct. That’s okay. This is a common thing, and the first step is actually acknowledging that we are different people [00:33:00] in different situations, but I need to know who they actually are if we want to make changes.
That is why I am being a little tough on them.
Ryan: What did you decide?
Isabelle: Um, well, we’re back here.
Ramit: Uh-huh.
Isabelle: So that was
Ramit: one thing.
Ryan: I’m glad.
Isabelle: Very glad. I would say part of my profession is I’m, I’m, you know, a, a third part performer. So I, I teach- Mm-hmm … and I do professional development, and I do workshops, and a lot of that involves presenting yourself in a particular way, speaking in a particular way, and also maintaining a, a sense of credibility and professionalism in how you present yourself.
And I think because of that, I’m used to sometimes masking certain things that I don’t particularly wanna share or be very honest about.
Ramit: Yep.
Isabelle: Um, but the other reason that I was telling him I wanted to, to continue is because you’re telling me things I don’t wanna hear.
Ramit: Wow.
Isabelle: And sometimes I think we need people to do that.
Ramit: I’m honored. That’s-
Isabelle: So congratulations. You’re making me very [00:34:00] uncomfortable.
Ramit: That’s never my goal, but that sometimes is the byproduct.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you, um, sharing that.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: And I can only imagine some of the ways that you’ve had to professionalize your appearance- Mm-hmm … the way that you show up as a woman, daughter of immigrants.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm. As a person of color and as a person who’s young in a space of professional development,
Ramit: yes.
Exactly, yes, especially in an academic environment.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: So let’s acknowledge that, and the fact that you came back and you said, “This is making me uncomfortable, and I wanna walk towards that”- Right … that’s a huge sign for me, a positive sign. Mm-hmm. So I appreciate you coming back. Thank you. Ryan?
Ryan: I think I’ve been deflecting too much.
Uh, I think that at some point, I don’t know the main reasoning, maybe I just felt like my opinion wasn’t valued, so I just kind of quit trying or caring, and I should’ve been putting more effort into it. And I have a lot of guilt, which is the reason for that.
Ramit: [00:35:00] Mm-hmm. Do you wanna be here?
Ryan: Yeah, I wanna be here.
Ramit: Okay. I’m glad you’re both back. I’ve been pushing hard, and I wanna acknowledge that. I know what it takes to be in those seats. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of effort. I would be remiss if I let you walk out of here and I had spent hours reacting to the words you had said, but we hadn’t really gotten to the truth.
Mm-hmm. That’s why I’ve been pushing. So what do you say we keep moving forward?
Ryan: Yeah. Of course.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Let’s do it
Ramit: Honestly, it’s pretty impressive to see them come back in the room and share this new energy that they are bringing in here. That’s one of the reasons that I try not to be too aggressive when I speak to couples.
‘Cause I can browbeat anyone into saying, “I need to save more in my Roth IRA,” but the minute they walk out of the room, they’re not gonna do it. When people see this almost judo that you’re playing with each other, they start to realize, “Oh, if I wanna get something out of this, I need [00:36:00] to take the initiative.”
And I’m seeing that here. Both of them are saying, “Hey, we’re ready.” That responsibility is important, especially because when you come on this podcast, sometimes you might discover parts of yourself that you didn’t even know exist. And what’s worse, sometimes you might not like what you see. But the fact that they are back and they are pushing on, I’m all for it.
We’re gonna take a look at the
Ryan: numbers right after this.
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Ryan: code Ramit.
Ramit: I’m gonna take a look at their [00:39:00] numbers by pulling up their conscious spending plan.
Let’s take a look. Assets, $1.2 million. Investments, $175,000. Savings, $68,000. Debt, $688,000. Total net worth, $800,000. Fixed costs, 83%. That’s quite high. Investments at 3%, savings at 0, and guilt-free spending at 15%. Very interesting here. So as I throw those numbers up-
Ryan: Mm-hmm …
Ramit: what was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?
Ryan: Yeah, the plan, I don’t know if I’d really say it was together. She filled in, like, a guess of what she had, and I went over it and verified it. Mm-hmm. But maybe we didn’t do it together, if I’m being honest. Like, we had two different versions that kind of joined together- Mm-hmm … after working on it separately.
When you say, “How did it feel to do it together?” that kind of shines more light into the dynamic we have.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah. So I- I’ve had a conscious spending plan. I’ve had our conscious spending plan for over a [00:40:00] year- Mm-hmm … maybe two years now. So I, I had the plan. I have all of the accounts. I know what our spending is.
I track that regularly. Um, and then I think I, I kept, like I was trying to ask, “Can we, you know, sit down and walk through this together?” Um, it, it kind of kept not happening, and as I probably usually do, I just ended up doing it. So yeah, I don’t think it was together necessarily.
Ramit: Yeah. Turned into a transaction, huh?
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Probably a great illustration of how money works- Yeah … right now in your relationship.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: Okay. Let’s go through the numbers.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: My hope is that by the time you walk out of here- Were you to do another CSP, you would do it together.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Okay. What do you think of those numbers?
Isabelle: I think they’re pretty good.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Honestly. One of the things I’m proud of in that box is that our only debt is mortgage debt, so I worked very, very hard. We worked, not just me, we worked very, very hard, um, to knock down kind of existing debt that we had. I think our, our [00:41:00] investments could be higher, and I think that’s a consequence of not figuring out what any of that meant or was until our mid-30s.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um, but other than that, like, I’m, I’m pretty happy with where we are there.
Ramit: Good. Yeah. I love hearing words like happy and proud. Mm-hmm. Proud is my favorite word that people use to describe how they feel about their numbers. That’s awesome. Well done. Ryan, how about you?
Ryan: I feel pretty good about it, definitely, in terms of having assets.
Um, I feel like we have done a lot as far as that goes.
Ramit: Do the numbers mean anything to you?
Ryan: Yeah, they do. They mean that, well, we’re fairly comfortable, I guess, from the look of it.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: I can probably buy the $14 ice cream scoop.
Ramit: Hmm. Is that for real? Is that what you take away from this?
Ryan: Part of it, yeah.
Ramit: What else?
Ryan: That maybe I’m a little anxious about my purchases still.
Ramit: You know that, right?
Ryan: Yeah, I know. You already know that. I already knew that. Like, I’m not taking a lot away from it. I feel like with me, part of the problem is I [00:42:00] know what I … I know it’s irrational, and maybe I would benefit from therapy more so than discussing it.
Like I- Not
Ramit: maybe Yeah. For sure.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: What I take away from your response is there’s a cloud in front of you, this cloud of anxiety that doesn’t let you actually see these numbers and see what they mean, and I would love it for both of you to be able to see all of your numbers and actually make meaning out of it.
Right. So one way to do that might be therapy, continued discussions, and what we’re gonna do today. Mm. Okay? Let’s see. Ryan, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?
Ryan: Sure. Gross monthly income 12,594.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Net monthly income is $9,189.
Ramit: All right, so $12.500 per month. That’s her income. I know that right now- Yeah.
Mm-hmm … you don’t have an income. That’s a household income of $151,000. All right. Fixed costs, what number is that, Isabelle?
Isabelle: 83%.
Ramit: That’s pretty high.
Isabelle: [00:43:00] Yes. It doesn’t feel high on a day-to-day for me.
Ramit: Really?
Isabelle: I feel like we have made a lot of adjustments in our day-to-day already that have helped mitigate some of that change.
But I- Like? Like where we eat out or don’t eat out, like the kinds of activities we sign our daughter up or not for. Good. Like, we- we’re having a big drop-off in daycare spending now.
Ramit: You two may be the only couple who actually adjusted your spending down- … after cutting half your income out. Well- Like, this never happens.
Isabelle: So, uh, yeah. That’s why I think it-
Ramit: Are, are you guys hearing me? Have you ever taken the compliment? No.
Isabelle: No, I haven’t. I’m terrible at taking compliments.
Ramit: Y’all are pivoting off to some other thing I don’t care about.
Isabelle: Thank you.
Ramit: Take the compliment. Take the- Thank you. It’s amazing. Nobody ever does this. Okay.
You guys are unique That’s amazing. I also have never heard anyone with 83% fixed costs say that it doesn’t actually feel that stressful.
Isabelle: Like, I’m not worried about am I going to make the mortgage payment, or are we going [00:44:00] to have enough to cover the gas bill, you know? That-
Ramit: Mm.
Isabelle: That’s what I- Mm … think of when I think about money stress, is, uh, we- we’re going to meet all of our fixed costs, and we’ll have some left over.
Ryan: I will say that I’m pretty proud that we lost effectively half our income, and we still managed to kind of avoid dipping into savings, which is something that people generally have to do at that point. Yeah. Yeah,
Ramit: we- Big time. It’s incredible. It’s, it’s there. Your emergency fund is 68- It’s … Yeah … let’s just say $70,000.
Isabelle: Yeah. And we haven’t- And
Ramit: that’s 10- … we haven’t really touched that … that’s roughly 10 months of expenses, maybe nine months.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. That’s impressive. All right, let’s look at the rest of the numbers. Investments are at 3%. That 3% post-tax is a 529.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: So y’all are putting money aside for your four-year-old instead of for yourself.
Isabelle: Part of it is that I have a, a solid pension. Okay. And so I have, uh, 8% taken pre-tax. Hmm. So that’s already accounted for. That’s why my net monthly income is, is that chunk lower.
Ramit: Hmm.
Isabelle: Um, and I also have that small additional 403for mine.
Ramit: 150 a month for that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: [00:45:00] Um, when Ryan was working, we were maxing out his 401, but that had been a recent development.
I logged in and increased the contributions myself.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: But I don’t know where that account lives right now. I can’t access it. I can’t put money into it. I
Ryan: could
Isabelle: show you. I can’t access it. I don’t have the dual auth for it.
Ryan: I logged you in.
Isabelle: But … So we, his, his retirement contributions have stopped entirely.
Yeah,
Ryan: my retirement contributions have stopped.
Isabelle: That’s, that’s the- I need to move it over … the net reason why that’s zero. I’m actually in the process
Ryan: of doing that. I’m trying to get a check.
Ramit: Is this an issue, like, the fact that right now he’s not contributing to his 401?
Isabelle: I think it’s an issue. Yes. Yes. Um- Oh.
Why? I’ve-
Ryan: I,
Isabelle: I thought it was. Because what if I go outside tomorrow and get hit by a bus?
Ramit: Yeah. What if?
Isabelle: I think, I think he won’t have anything to fall back on. Part of what’s been an- annoying me, I don’t know about that, is I’ve been asking, “Can you move this to a non-employer account?”
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Like, can you move it to just a standard, you know, IRA or something else?
And I think you’ve been saying, “Yeah, I’ll look into it,” for a while now.
Ramit: You drag your feet, [00:46:00] Ryan?
Ryan: Sometimes, yes.
Ramit: Hmm.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Why?
Ryan: If I’m being totally honest, maybe there’s a degree of, like, false hope. Like, I was interviewing multiple times and I’m just like, “Yeah, this job’s really close. I’m gonna get it, and I’ll just move it over to another employer 401.”
Mm-hmm. And then it fell apart at the last minute.
Ramit: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Investments are at 3%, again, going to your five two nine. Savings are at zero.
Isabelle: That reflects how I’ve essentially always functioned around savings, which is what we have left over goes into the spare savings- Ah … high-yield savings account. And then if we have the money for a thing, we do it, and if we don’t, we don’t.
Ramit: So this is interesting now. Now I’m seeing.
Isabelle: Now it’s stressing me out.
Ramit: Right. This approach, which is a little sloppy-
Isabelle: Mm-hmm …
Ramit: of like, “Hey, like, let’s just cover everything and then whatever’s left over we’ll put in savings”- Yeah … that works when you have, like, oodles and oodles of money.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Because you can’t…
I mean, bread is bread. You’re, [00:47:00] there’s no amount you’re gonna spend on bread that’s gonna materially affect you. So at 300K, you’re doing great. Yeah. And now you’re realizing, oh my gosh, savings is not growing at all. Yeah. Okay.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: And then finally, we go down to guilt-free spending, 15% or 1,356. Is that accurate?
Isabelle: Uh, that’s probably high.
Ryan: Typically, we go months without spending anything, but then we have, like, a large lump purchase. Hmm. What would it be-
Ramit: I’d say- … that’s a lump one?
Ryan: Um, we have an upcoming trip to Iceland that- Great … she paid for in advance.
Ramit: It’s, it’s interesting. Looking at your numbers, all the spending is quite reasonable-
Ryan: Mm-hmm
Ramit: in the category. Groceries, 650. Afterschool care, 350. Pet costs, 135. Mm-hmm. But then I notice- Yep … two mortgages.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: So we’ve got a mortgage- That’s the, that’s the- … on a house and a mortgage on a condo. Can you walk me through it?
Isabelle: That is … Well, I can tell you that’s what’s feels like it’s killing us sometimes.
The long story or the short story?
Ramit: Give me the short first, in one sentence.
Isabelle: The short story is we are paying the mortgage on my mom’s condo
Ramit: What’s the longer story?
Isabelle: Uh, the longer story is my dad passed away a few years [00:48:00] ago.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Uh, she was living three hours away. My mom was living three hours away and could not sustain it.
She’s older, she has mobility issues, and so we decided to move her down here.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: Um, much more expensive in this area, and so the house that she sold in Central California was in no way going to pay for a, a home here. Um, so we put the entirety of the house value into the condo down pay- into the down payment for a condo.
So- How,
Ramit: what percent?
Isabelle: About 50%.
Ramit: Okay. So that’s why the-
Isabelle: That’s why
Ramit: it’s- … amount you’re paying is so low.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: Okay. And how many more years on that condo?
Isabelle: 28.
Ramit: 20. Okay. More years. Let’s just say 30. And how about on your house? Yeah, and,
Isabelle: and it’s
Ramit: a
Isabelle: high percentage. Yeah.
Ryan: Interesting. It’s, um, it’s worth saying that, um, her mom also owns additional property that she’s looking into selling that would cover a large chunk of that.
Ramit: Yeah. Really? Well,
Isabelle: she is, yes.
Ramit: How soon?
Isabelle: Soon. That’s, that’s, that’s been a point of disagreement between us. Um, she has a home in Mexico that she is trying to sell, but it’s been a couple years now, and she’s-
Ramit: Couple years? …
Isabelle: moving [00:49:00] slow on it.
Ramit: Give me your phone. I’ll knock this out in 15 minutes. What do you mean?
Yes. What? A couple of years?
Isabelle: I think she’s struggling with letting it go.
Ramit: How much will she make?
Isabelle: Uh, about enough to pay off the condo.
Ramit: Hmm.
Isabelle: About 200 or so.
Ramit: That’s quite interesting. And would she take the money and pay off the condo?
Isabelle: I think so, but I think the reason she would do that right now is because she knows that Ryan doesn’t have a job and that we’re Paying it ourselves
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ah, she knows this?
Isabelle: Yes, she does. Yeah.
Ramit: And what does she feel about that?
Isabelle: Um-
Ramit: Does she feel stressed?
Isabelle: I think so, yes. I think she feels m- enormously more stressed than I do, um, because I- How is that
Ramit: possible?
Isabelle: Well, she comes from, uh, from, you know, my childhood and from our upbringing, she comes from a place where, you know, she remembers a time when my dad lost his job, and they were within inches of losing the house.
I see. So her stress is coming from a place of, “If I don’t do this, you’ll- you’re going to lose everything.”
Ramit: But, but not enough for her to sell the house?
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: No. W- w- does she have, uh, social security?
Isabelle: Yes. Okay. That’s her only [00:50:00] source of income.
Ramit: That covers what she needs on a day-to-day basis- Yes … or do you have to put in extra?
Isabelle: No, that, that about covers what she needs.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Period. Right. I mean, if worse came to worse, theoretically, we have talked to her, and she’s okay with moving in with us and renting said condo.
Ramit: Mm.
Ryan: But we haven’t really quite approached that yet.
Ramit: Do you think you need to do that?
Ryan: Not quite yet, but I think we’re encroaching on that territory if I can’t find something else.
Ramit: You might be surprised, but these numbers are okay to me. Let me tell you why. First, while 83% is way higher than I like to see, I can see that all of their fixed costs are quite reasonable except for having two mortgages. Next, I can see that their savings, while they are saving $0, they actually have 10 months of savings, so if they wanna stop saving, okay.
Their guilt-free spending, 15%, not bad for a one-income household. Yeah, there are a couple things that I noticed. They don’t have any money for vacations, and they’ve talked about liking to travel, et cetera, [00:51:00] et cetera. If they wanted to continue like this, they could, but that’s actually what troubles me. So if anything, I wanna help them sharpen their spending so that it becomes very clear
Ryan: who they are, what they love, right in their CSP.
I also know that if we took it out, we’d be back down to 60% for fixed costs, approximately.
Ramit: Shall we look?
Ryan: We can,
Ramit: sure. Let’s take a look. Let’s zero out the condo. Down to 66%. Yeah. Yeah. You know, y- you have cut back on other things- Yeah … and fixed costs. I can see that. It’s impressive. Um-
Isabelle: Yeah, a lot of those numbers are reflecting-
Ramit: Yeah
Isabelle: serious cutbacks in the last- That you’ve cut back. Yes.
Ramit: Yeah. Yeah. No savings, um, except for this 70K that you put aside when times were flush. Right.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: I notice things like no- Yeah … vacation money.
Isabelle: Which kills me.
Ramit: Mm-hmm, ’cause I know that vacations are important to you.
Isabelle: Yes, it is.
Ryan: Yeah. Up until now, it hasn’t really been an issue.
I think it will be more of an issue long term because that factors in the fact that we paid for some of the [00:52:00] vacations and a large chunk of it already, so.
Ramit: Oh, like Iceland? Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Where did that money come from?
Isabelle: It came from the before times- Oh. … I’ll say. So-
Ramit: BL, before layoff. Okay.
Isabelle: Yeah. Um, yeah. Well, I acknowledge it was sloppy, but a lot of the time we had enough income- Yeah
for many years that my strategy was I will just, you know, take whatever’s left over in the checking account at the end of the month- Mm-hmm … bring it down to, like, eight grand, say, send over the rest to high-yield savings, and oh, look, there’s enough money there to book this trip. So-
Ramit: Ryan, what are you hearing when she describes this?
Ryan: I don’t know.
Ramit: Are you hearing a well-developed financial plan?
Ryan: Not really necessarily.
Ramit: Yeah. But isn’t it interesting that in your relationship she’s the one in charge?
Ryan: Yeah, th- that’s true. I mean, I feel like if I try to develop something, it’s dismissed. But I don’t really pay attention to what she’s doing, and maybe I should be as well.
Maybe sh-
Ramit: Not maybe.
Ryan: Yeah?
Ramit: Yes. I find this pattern is very, very common where- Mm … we have the person who’s the money person, [00:53:00] and they have, like, multiple spreadsheets. How many spreadsheets do you have?
Isabelle: Oh, no. I don’t have any spreadsheets other than this one.
Ramit: This is the only one?
Isabelle: I keep everything on an app.
Ramit: Okay. Does that count? How many times a day do you log into your app? Okay,
Isabelle: they- Any time
Ryan: I buy something, I get a, “
Ramit: What, what’s this $12 charge?” Thank you very much. So they are in the guts of- I know … the finances, and then the partner doesn’t pay attention, goes, “Ah, you’re so good at it. You’re better at math than I am.
You handle it. You’re so good.” And then what it turns out to be is that the person who’s the money person actually does not really have a developed system. Mm-hmm. They just move numbers around, here, there. They think that managing money is paying bills. I find this is very common, especially with women who come on here.
Mm-hmm. Paying bills is managing money. That’s not managing money. That’s like pushing paper. Yeah. Computers can do it better than us. But nobody in the relationship, even the money person, is talking about the important things. What percentage is automatically going to savings? What’s our investment rate?
Are we gonna have enough at [00:54:00] retirement? How do we plan for this vacation that we wanna take? Right. These are big questions. Right. But most of us end up being concerned about the price of pickles.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Sound familiar?
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah, I would agree.
Ramit: So w- healthy is a- I am interested because I know that money affects us, it affects our daughter- Mm-hmm
it affects everybody around us, my mother-in-law, all of it. I am knowledgeable, and if I don’t have the knowledge, I read the book, one of those, both of those. And I communicate because I gotta get my partner and me, we gotta be on the same page. That’s how it would look like. What about for you, Isabelle?
Isabelle: A healthier relationship and a healthier couple’s relationship with money would involve me being less judgmental and being more open to suggestions or ideas.
And even if I don’t agree with them initially, being open to saying, “Either we can discuss this further or can we both learn about this together and come back [00:55:00] to it?”
Ramit: Lovely.
Isabelle: Um, ’cause I was realizing that, and again, this comes back to a professional setting. In a lot of professional settings, I’m very accustomed to being the person that’s most knowledgeable in the room and the person that’s in power in the room.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: I think I’m realizing that I bring that into a lot of spaces. I’m laughing ’cause I, internally, ’cause I remember he’s mentioned before, like, you’re using your teacher voice.
Ramit: Wow.
Isabelle: And-
Ramit: Insightful …
Isabelle: and I don’t mean to do that, but-
Ramit: And it’s, it’s more than the voice too, right?
Isabelle: But it’s… Yes. Yes.
Ramit: It’s a- It’s not just the voice, it’s the…
Isabelle: Yeah, it’s the mentality. Yeah. It’s the mentality of I, I have authority and I have power in this space. Yeah. Um, and I didn’t, I don’t know that I realized that I was doing that.
Ramit: That’s good. What a great realization. Um, like it’s- Like life-changing.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Oh my God.
Isabelle: Yeah, yeah, because we don’t want that. So I
Ramit: actually think it’s incredibly courageous of both of you to be here.
Isabelle, for you to apply, amazing. For you to stay here even though you’re discovering, like, these things that are quite uncomfortable.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Right? I appreciate you. And then Ryan, you’re here. You initially said, “I’m here ’cause she wants me to be here.” What are you [00:56:00] seeing for the reason that you are actually here now?
Ryan: I wanna be more comfortable with money. I wanna have, like, more of a say in the decisions.
Ramit: Yeah. I want you to as well. Who does the laundry in your relationship? Oh, did I open up a can of worms? I j- I just wanted a simple one. Who empties the dishwasher? I don’t care. Pick a simple one.
Ryan: We each do our own laundry.
Ramit: Huh?
Isabelle: I went on s- laundry strike- Okay … I’m gonna call that, because I was tired of doing the whole family’s laundry all the time.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: And so, one, I, I don’t– we didn’t even discuss it. I think one week I just did my laundry, and I picked out all of his. And then the next week, we had two laundry baskets. Oh.
Ryan: I steal hers from time to time.
I shouldn’t reflect on, but- She doesn’t touch mine ever.
Ramit: But just as- What did you think of the fact that one day she just stopped doing your laundry?
Ryan: I thought it was passive-aggressive.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: Yeah, and it probably w- Maybe … it probably was. But, like,
Ramit: yes, I agree, and what else?
Ryan: Frustrating that it wasn’t communicated.
Ramit: What a microcosm. Yeah. Here I am just trying [00:57:00] to find a simple example- Mm-hmm … and it turns out I, every- … every little thing I look under, there’s, like, a, a story that is- The whole
Isabelle: story …
Ramit: that is a microcosm of what’s going on here.
Isabelle: Yep.
Ramit: Like, I don’t mind if y’all do separate laundry, whatever.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. But the fact that it was never communicated and that you went on strike- Mm-hmm
which meant there must have been a lot of frustration. Yeah. Like, whoa. I don’t know if you see a brighter future, but I do.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: There is a brighter future where the two of you actually feel good about laundry. There is a brighter future where you feel good about money, where you can talk about it, where you might disagree, you might do it differently than you’re doing it now, but you actually both are like, “Okay, we’re a team.”
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Do you believe that?
Isabelle: I think so, yes. I, I, yes.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Right.
Ryan: Yeah, I think so. Okay.
Ramit: In this family, Isabelle manages the money. She’s also recently the sole earner, and if [00:58:00] something’s gonna get done, she’s gotta do it herself. Does any of this sound familiar? Maybe for your parents, maybe for you. This is something I frequently hear, especially from the female guests on this show.
And as Isabelle takes on more and more responsibility on her shoulders, do you notice the dynamic happening with Ryan? She sends totally mixed messages. “Hey, I need you to participate in the money. Oh, you’re not doing it right, though. Hey, I need you to participate more around the house. Ah, you’re not doing it my way, though.”
And that is very confusing for the recipient. When you get mixed messages, a lot of times people simply give up because they go, “No matter what I do, I can’t do it right, so I’m opting out of this game altogether.” We do not want that in a relationship. We wanna find a way to come together, to have a vision, something that connects us, not keeps us separate.
How am I gonna get them to come together, especially if it means having to change who they are from the inside out? Do you think the [00:59:00] CSP is in a good position or not?
Isabelle: I think s- I, so yes, I think that the change that we need to make is probably to increase income, and I think we maybe disagree a little bit on how to do that.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Okay, let’s talk about that. So what has the discussion been around Ryan, you getting a job?
Ryan: I’ve been focusing on high earning jobs. I’ve always been the one who’s been pursued rather than the one who’s in pursuit. Mm-hmm. So this is new for me, and I think that’s part of the reason why I’m struggling with it.
Ramit: Hmm. What is your plan going forward?
Ryan: I’m currently looking at pivoting some other positions. I’m looking at moving into some tangentially, um, related fields- Mm-hmm … that are a little bit more localized, but pay less.
Ramit: How much would you make ballpark?
Ryan: Probably like 70, 80,000.
Ramit: Okay. So you used to make 150.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: You would make, let’s say 70, 80 with one of these jobs. It’d be nearby your place.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: And you could do it. Are you okay with that job?
Ryan: I’d probably be okay because I’d still be [01:00:00] closer to my child and have better work-life balance.
Ramit: Got it. Right. Honestly, sounds like a great plan to me.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Uh, Isabelle, what, what’s your perspective on this?
Isabelle: We need to increase income, but I don’t necessarily think that’s has to be him working.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: So, like, one possibility that I floated by him is that he could be a stay-at-home dad for a few years. I have the potential to make more money. I always do. I think I, I have a fair amount of expertise in my field, and I could teach summer classes and make an extra 20K.
I could take on, you know, additional grant work or additional training or additional university. Like, I c- I had an opportunity pop up in my email last week to make an extra 2K over the summer just for, you know, some, some committee work. I’ve s- I’ve floated that as an idea by him. I don’t think it would be a substantial increase in income, but it would be enough to offset some of those losses.
Ryan: If I can interject, um, I feel like that’s not necessarily the best move because she’s always telling me she’s drowning and she’s doing too much already.
Isabelle: I, I-
Ramit: Hold on. [01:01:00] I kinda love… Uh, like, this is cool. Like, nah, I think you say that, but actually I don’t believe it. I kinda love this.
Ryan: This is something we already talked about.
Now she’s bringing up something that counteracts that. It worries me a little bit.
Ramit: Right. It, like, it doesn’t add up. You’re already stressed. You’re already feeling overwhelmed. You’re on laundry strike. Although, this stay-at-home dad would solve the laundry problem. But you wanna take on more? Hmm. What do you make of that?
Isabelle: The other thing that I’ve floated by is a complete career pivot and trying to find other ways to-
Ramit: I mean, it’s really funny that in, in the example where you do not feel good, your solution is to tell him what to do next.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Isn’t that the problem?
Isabelle: I mean, my solution- Take
Ramit: a look in the mirror. Hold on.
Laundry. No, no, no. Do you have a, do you have a, I have a mirror right here. Look, let me put this camera on. I’m gonna f- put it at you. Look in this mirror. That won’t- Look in the mirror
Isabelle: It’s funny because the first thing that I probably would have said is if I wasn’t happy with something, I would have done it myself.
Ramit: Which would be?
Isabelle: [01:02:00] No, like if I came home and, I don’t know, the toys weren’t put away- Oh, you would have done it yourself … I would, I will probably passive aggressively have put everything away myself.
Ramit: Like, like I,
Isabelle: I’ve seen this. That’s the actual truth. I’ve seen this. That’s the actual truth- Picking up the toys
and that I would have done.
Ramit: Like not, not telling anyone. Rage
Isabelle: cleaning. Like
Ramit: getting… Yeah, rage cleaning. I
Isabelle: know. Ugh. It’s rage cleaning. I’m a terrible rage cleaner.
Ramit: Um- Okay, so perhaps we can do this in a more healthy way.
Isabelle: Yeah, that’s not a
Ramit: healthy way. If you, if everything that you construct in this plan works and you still don’t feel better, what would you do?
Hint, work on this. Mm-hmm. How do you do that? How do you work on your own feelings?
Isabelle: Right now I don’t. No, I don’t. I- But
Ramit: what would you do?
Isabelle: Pro- talk to him, right? We should talk together. We should talk about meeting expectations or changing expectations possibly.
Ramit: I’m gonna suggest that the two of you maybe don’t yet have these skills.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: So how do you do it?
Isabelle: I mean, I still think we probably need to go to therapy –
Ramit: Agreed … for
Isabelle: one.
Ramit: Maybe get a coach. Yeah. Maybe get your own coach or therapist. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, there’s so many ways to get help besides rage cleaning and then telling him what to do. Yeah. And that’s actually- Yeah … the [01:03:00] crux of what’s going on here- Right
which is, like, total disconnection, parent-child thing, and not actually having a vision of what do I want-
Isabelle: Mm-hmm …
Ramit: what do you want, and then what do both of you want?
Isabelle: Yeah. And I think that’s what we are, especially what we both want, I think, is there, there’s a disconnect there- Yeah … right now in terms of what we see moving forward.
Ramit: I gotta figure out how this all started, and we’re gonna get into that right after this. How come everybody teaches you how to save, but nobody teaches you the skill of spending money meaningfully? It’s a tragedy to end up older and older, having atrophied at the skill of using your money to live a rich life.
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Ramit: Isabel, what do you remember your parents saying about money when you were young? “
Isabelle: We can’t afford that.”
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Or, “We don’t have the money.” Um, my parents were s- uh, seasonal laborers, so my dad did a lot of farm, uh, farm and field labor. My mom was at factories. Um, so, uh, a lot of the time they would work six to seven months out of the year.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: And then you made it work for the others based off of savings and unemployment and just figuring things out.
Ramit: Yep.
Isabelle: I was very accustomed to knowing where we were financially, what we could and could not afford, but it was always a, you know, we, we need to save for when we won’t have money.
Ramit: Did you tell them that?
Isabelle: They were telling me that.
Ramit: I see.
Isabelle: And, and I, I think I internalized that message very early on. I still remember I wouldn’t ask for things because I knew we couldn’t afford them, so.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: You just wouldn’t ask for it.
Ramit: Yeah. [01:06:00] What else did you observe them doing with money?
Isabelle: I didn’t observe my dad doing a whole lot of anything.
Mm-hmm. Um, I think he was always just, “I’m going to go out, and I will work as hard as I possibly can, as many hours as I can, and come home.” And their routine by the time I came along was, “I will just sign over my check and pass it along to you,” and my mom was the one who always managed everything. It’s
Ramit: common, right?
Yeah. Common in a lot of matriarchal cultures.
Isabelle: Yes. Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah, it was always just i- the mechanics, right? Like, we’re managing how we pay all of the bills. This, this way m- we maybe will have enough for X or Y but not Z. Like, it was a lot of that type of messaging.
Ramit: Did you go to college?
Isabelle: I did.
Ramit: How’d you pay for it?
Isabelle: Full ride.
Ramit: Wow.
Isabelle: Also grad school full ride.
Ramit: Wow. Very impressive.
Isabelle: Which is why I don’t have debt, so I don’t know.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: That’s pretty cool. Were they impressed that you were able to do that?
Isabelle: Yes. Yes. They were both very, very proud of me. I think they valued education- Mm-hmm … quite a bit, and so that was something that they fostered from a very early on age.
I [01:07:00] still, I still tell folks my mom doesn’t know what I do.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Really, she doesn’t, she doesn’t understand what I did in grad school. She doesn’t understand quite what I do now other than I teach.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: But I think they were both very proud of that and also very, uh, thankful because if they hadn’t done that, I would’ve been in student loan debt.
There was no other way around it. There, there was, there was absolutely no way they could’ve contributed-
Ramit: Right …
Isabelle: at all.
Ramit: When you think about your relationship with your parents, your relationship with money, their relationship- Mm-hmm … with money, what messages about money do you think you internalized as a kid that you are bringing into this relationship?
Isabelle: Um, it, there was definitely the messaging of, “Your dad doesn’t know what he’s doing with money, so I will do all of it,” because when he, when he did manage the money, they didn’t get anywhere or do anything, so all of the property, they built the house, everything was after my mom started managing it.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um, there was, there was definitely that. There was a lot of scarcity mindset around money. Like, we don’t… Like I said, I don’t, I [01:08:00] didn’t ask for things ’cause I didn’t have it.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um- Do
Ramit: you have scarcity mindset today?
Isabelle: I think right now we have been, and I think that’s been part of, like, actu- You know, I, when, when we realized that our income was dropping, it was a very natural reflex to just say, “Okay, we are, like, we are cutting now.”
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: And I said we, we’ve lived on a much lower income before, so I think it was- Yeah … like, “Yep, all right. We’re, we’re not eating out at this place anymore.” Like, that’s just what it is because that’s what I grew up with.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: You know?
Ramit: What else?
Isabelle: I also know that there was a lot of things I didn’t learn from them, right?
Like, my mom right now, her only income is Social Security. There’s no concept really of saving for anything other than, than that.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. Does your mom or did she ever- Dream
Isabelle: I don’t think so. I mean, I think having a house was their dream
Ramit: Yeah. Yeah
Isabelle: Which is why right now for her to, to have that house and pass it on
Ramit: Yeah, that’s meaningful to her in a way that others may not recognize.
Yeah [01:09:00] Do you dream?
Isabelle: Uh, hmm
Lo- uh, long term, I don’t know that I do
Ramit: Mm-hmm
Isabelle: Like, there’s, there’s things that I know that I enjoy doing, but I don’t know what it, yeah, what it looks like down the line
Ramit: Mm. Your mom spent a lot of time in the mechanics of money. Dad hands over the check. She makes sure the bills are paid.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Puts some money aside for when times are lean.
Isabelle: Right
Ramit: You do the same. Money comes in, your husband makes money, made money at his job- Mm-hmm … gives it to you. You sign him up for his 401. You make sure the bills are getting paid on time. It’s okay. It’s fine. You’re getting things done. Stuck in the mechanics forever, though, from one generation to the next.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Even though income has gone up-
Isabelle: Tenfold-
Ramit: Yeah …
Isabelle: from what my parents [01:10:00] made.
Ramit: Yeah. No dreaming still, just mechanics. Just pure mechanics.
Isabelle: Hmm.
Ramit: What are you hearing, Ryan?
Ryan: I feel like she does dream, um, to some extent, but it’s usually smaller scale dreams like my own. Um, she’s always the first one to be watching travel videos on Instagram and all over the place.
Um, she’s s- she’s told me before that she lives for her next trip. Oh. And I consider that a form of dreaming.
Ramit: Wait, I love that. But where is it in the CSP? It’s nowhere right now. It’s
Isabelle: nowhere right now. Right.
Ramit: Yeah. Okay, got it. Fair enough. Fair enough. I actually think your reaction to the cutting of 50% income is very health…
maybe more healthy than any other couple I’ve seen on this podcast. Mm-hmm. Most people, they lose some income, and they just go, “Well, that sucks. Anyway, let’s go to TGI Fridays.” I’m like, “What the ?”
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: How are you spending 75 bucks there? Mm-hmm. Anyway, the travel thing is interesting. You like [01:11:00] to travel. You said, “I dream of the next trip,” but you didn’t answer that in the dream.
Why?
Isabelle: Because that’s a zero right now. Like, I don’t know.
Ramit: Ah.
Isabelle: Yeah. I don’t know what that would look like.
Ramit: Do you think deep down you are not confident that your husband will ever make an income again?
Isabelle: Oh, no. Um, I don’t think that, I don’t, ugh. I’m having a hard… I know I should answer a yes or a no question because this was a yes or a no question. Yes, please. I think he can make an income again, yes.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: Fair enough. I- I, I don’t know that I’m 100% convinced it can or maybe should be in the same field, and I don’t think that’s necessarily because he is or is not incapable of it.
I think that’s because in your previous job and, and a couple of others, like, I didn’t ever feel like you were passionate about it. And I feel like- Yeah … now might be a time to pivot or to find something that you maybe has better balance or that you care more about. And so that’s, that’s where I [01:12:00] am. Like, I, I, I think, yes, he can make an income again.
That’s, that’s not the question. I just question whether there could be things that are better fits. That was a very long answer to a very short question.
Ramit: No, it’s quite illuminating because while you may or may not be right, my perspective is- Yeah … why are you telling him what to do about his career? I,
Isabelle: uh, I don’t know.
Ramit: Like, it’s just perpetuating this parent- It’s
Isabelle: this
Ramit: parent- … dynamic …
Isabelle: yeah, yeah.
Ramit: Why don’t you tell your daughter that she’s not allowed to go into this field and do that?
Isabelle: Well, she’s, she- oh, we’re not gonna go there.
Ramit: What is she not allowed to do? She’s- It’s okay. Kids of immigrants can say what the kids… Like, you think if-
if, if my kid wanted to be an actor, I’d be like, “What the fuck?”
Isabelle: Well, that’s what I said. She’s not allowed to go into the arts.
Ramit: But I will say this. This is what I said. Here’s my real answer- Okay … ’cause, like, yeah, you know, Indian people are not, like, really into their kids becoming actress or actor in general.
However, if a kid wanna be an actor or actress, I would say, “Okay, you gotta go interview 20 actors and actresses.” Mm-hmm. Successful ones, failures- Mm-hmm … everything. You gotta ask them about their lifestyle. How much can you spend on a [01:13:00] haircut? How often do you travel? Where do you live? Can I see what your apartment looks like?
Right. And then you get honest. Like, is this the kind of lifestyle I want or not? ‘Cause if they really wanna do it, they’re gonna do it. But most kids make dumb decisions ’cause they don’t know anything.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: All right.
Isabelle: Um- But he’s not a kid.
Ramit: He’s not a kid.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: And this whole, like, “You should do this or try that or whatever,” is just one more screw- Yeah, yeah
in the disempowering toolbox.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Hmm. Ryan, any reactions?
Ryan: Yeah, I partially heard that I don’t think she’s go- thinks I’m going to make the same salary again, which I’m, might be me being defensive ’cause I feel the same way. Yeah. Because it was a high earning potential with a lot of time dedicated to it.
Ramit: Yeah.
Ryan: And I think that’s partially where the-
Ramit: Do you feel that your value is determined by your income?
Ryan: A little bit sometimes, uh, if I’m being honest. Yeah. I wanna say no, but yeah, I think there’s some, like-
Ramit: That’s fine …
Ryan: some truth to that.
Ramit: [01:14:00] Most men feel this exact same way. Most men see themselves purely as a provider.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: And then, so do you see yourself as a, a provider?
Ryan: Yeah, I’d say so. I also feel like, um, in my family dynamic, like larger scale, my parents are- Don’t really talk to me much about my accomplishments other than- Yeah
Ramit: like my career. Well, well, well, what a surprise. Isabelle is behaving very similarly to what she saw modeled from her mom. It’s no surprise she feels like she needs to be in control of everything because she’s been doing basically that since she was 12 years old, almost taking on the role of a parent in her own relationship with her parents.
And there’s a double whammy, that her mom took over responsibility of the family finances because her dad was not good at money. I wonder what kind of effect that has for the next generation, as Isabelle doesn’t really seem to [01:15:00] trust Ryan. I’m curious to see what Ryan’s experience with money growing up was.
Tell me about growing up. What did they say about money?
Ryan: Worker parents, but my dad was a, um, small farmer in a rural community. Um, my mom worked at a nursing home. She worked her way up into management eventually, but she started washing dishes. And yeah, they were very much… They took a different approach, though.
I feel like, um, Isabelle began taking over, right? Taking over their finances. My parents, on the other hand, were maybe ashamed, and they didn’t pass any of that on. Mm. So any time I brought up money, there’d be, like, anxiety around it, and they’d talk ab- Did you grow up in the
Ramit: Midwest?
Ryan: Sorta, I grew up in Canada, in the rural area.
So
Ramit: Oh, wait. I don’t, I don’t have a, a metaphor for this. Is… ‘Cause in the Midwest, there’s a lot of guilt. Yeah. There’s a lot of shame. Is this common where you grew up?
Ryan: Yes, it is.
Isabelle: I would… Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Religious or no?
Ryan: Mm-mm.
Ramit: My family- Just Canadian. [01:16:00]
Isabelle: Pretty much.
Ramit: Rural Canadians love to feel guilty.
Isabelle: I think there is- Yeah
cultural overlap- Yeah …
Ramit: there as, like, Midwest. What is that? Explain that to me. I, I haven’t heard this before.
Ryan: Yeah. Um, you know the trope that it’s, “Sorry, eh?” Yeah. Apologize for everything. Um- It’s
Ramit: like that times a thousand.
Ryan: Yeah. My parents, uh, my mom in particular, um, she’s always said that she’s really proud that she was able to raise, um, self-aware kids who put others first.
Ramit: Mm. Mm-hmm. What’s the implication?
Ryan: That you’re worth less than someone else.
Ramit: Right. They come first.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: And she sees that as a virtue.
Ryan: Mm-hmm. Right.
Ramit: And do you s- how do you see that?
Ryan: I feel like it’s been plaguing me most of my life, if I’m honest. Yeah,
Ramit: yeah. Tell me. Yeah.
Ryan: Like, I’ve had problems kind of working on it.
And I did say that I’ve seen a therapist, right? That’s one thing I’ve worked on, is being more assertive, like in my career and my personal life. Yeah. ‘Cause I’m not very. Uh-huh. Which shows up with the money, I suppose. Mm. But yeah, I just… Because of the way I was [01:17:00] brought up, I was always taught that I need to take up less space, I need to not interrupt, I need to, like, always think about someone else’s feelings before I do something.
So…
Ramit: Do you have any sisters? I’m guessing no.
Ryan: I have an older sister.
Ramit: Really?
Ryan: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Ramit: In your household as a kid, who was the more dominant parent, mom or dad?
Ryan: Hmm, that’s a tough one. Um, probably my mom most of the time- Yeah … in terms of, like, who made, like, financial decisions and things like that.
Ramit: Okay. Um, my- And is your sister similarly…
Does she struggle with being assertive?
Ryan: Oh, yeah. Okay. Um- Yeah … I would debate my sister is in a much worse place than I am with it.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Really? Like, it’s been an affliction for her? It’s caused- Yes … trouble?
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Wow. Okay.
Ryan: Like, say what you will that she doesn’t let me make my own decisions, Isabelle, sometimes.
Ramit: Uh-huh.
Ryan: But she has helped me, I would say, in some sense, and which is what fostered a good relationship early on with some of that. Like, I like the fact that she saw [01:18:00] me as more than what I was, and she pushed me-
Ramit: Yeah …
Ryan: towards becoming better in my field and things like that in ways I don’t think would be possible without her.
Ramit: Hmm.
Ryan: Um, I don’t think my sister had the same dynamic, so.
Ramit: That’s tough.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: That’s really tough. It’s tough to see the way that you grew up with your parents w- when you’re a kid. You don’t know any better- Yeah. Yeah … and that’s the family that you’re born into.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: And that’s what’s normal to you. Yeah.
And then as you grow up and you start to meet other folks and get in different circumstances like working, and you realize, “Wow, the lessons I learned were not very helpful. In fact, they’re actually quite harmful,” that’s tough.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: I find it quite amazing how candid you are at re- especially about your childhood, and how accessible it is.
Like, you’ve clearly done work to be able to catalog the, the ways that you grew up. It’s very impressive.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Are your parents both alive?
Ryan: They are.
Ramit: [01:19:00] Okay. And are they together?
Ryan: They are.
Ramit: Okay. How are they with money today?
Ryan: Very poor. Aren’t you? Uh-huh.
Ramit: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah. Um- They make questionable financial decisions.
Ramit: Oh, like what?
Ryan: My dad, um, growing up has been involved in pyramid schemes. Um, my mom has been very much paycheck to paycheck most of her life up until retirement.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Even in retirement, as they get money, they spend it kind of thing, like all of it, and they’re just waiting for the next paycheck to come in to buy more.
Ramit: They’re dreamers.
Ryan: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
Ramit: Waiting for the next– Success is right around the corner, the next gig, the next deal.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: It’s all gonna take care of itself once we hit this next thing.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: How come you’re not like that? Are you? Mm- Whoa. Wow, interesting response. Is he?
Ryan: I, I, I think I daydream, but then I beat myself up about it and don’t actually do it.
Yeah. Real good.
Ramit: [01:20:00] I don’t, I
Ryan: don’t
Isabelle: think he has the optimistic-
Ramit: That’s crazy … end, end
Isabelle: point
Ramit: of- Like a dr- You’re like a, you’re like a- … a mini dreamer, but then you’re like, “Ah, this shit will never work.”
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah, and then, and then, and then he’s done.
Ramit: I’ve never met somebody like this.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Okay. Which,
Isabelle: I mean, I, I actually think reflects a little bit some of your parents’ dynamics because they, they tend to, to have this belief that like, “Oh, things aren’t just going– Like they’re just not gonna work out for us,” or it’s- Mm-hmm
the curse of the family or, you know.
Ramit: That’s classic poor-
Isabelle: Yeah …
Ramit: people mentality.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. Yeah. Like, the world happens to us. We can’t change anything about it. Right. Right. So we just are here to exist and deal with whatever comes our way.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: Like that’s, that’s cl- external locus of control.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Like, um… And actually, a lot of times people who have grow- grown up poor for generations, there’s a lot of reasons they believe that. Right. Right. Like things have not gone their way. Yeah. And they have gotten screwed XYZ way, and so in a way it’s kind of a rational response. Also, not helpful.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: So here now their son [01:21:00] rec- as recently as six months ago making $150,000 a year living in Southern California. That’s quite a difference.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: How did you grapple with the changes in your socioeconomic status?
Ryan: Not well, I don’t think. Like, I don’t feel like I… And it’s good that I didn’t in hindsight because we’d be in more trouble, but I don’t feel like my spending necessarily reflected it.
I always felt like my peers were spending more- Yeah … and things like that.
Ramit: What messages about money did you grow up with that you are bringing to this relationship?
Ryan: I don’t feel like the messages I got about money growing up have really worked as me believing them so much as me rejecting what they do.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: Because I’ve seen how it negatively impacted things.
Ramit: What about the part about assertiveness and putting other people ahead of you?
Ryan: Okay, that part definitely.
Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. I didn’t know the Canadian rural thing, okay? Thank you very much. I love learning more from my guests on this show. Ramit Sethi learns the most [01:22:00] about stereotypes from around the world. Thank you to my guests. In all seriousness, I want you to notice that the way you grow up, especially some of these cultural mores, these beliefs that we have, can actually profoundly affect and harm kids as they become adults.
If the idea is you’ve gotta put someone else ahead of you, as Ryan aptly observed, that means you have to put yourself back. Just think about all the ways that comes out: school, careers, romantic relationships, money. So for parents watching this show, think about the messages that you are consciously and unconsciously sending to your kids, because 30 years from now, they might be exhibiting some of the same challenges that Ryan is here.
I actually have a lot of compassion for both of them. They both grew up with money scarcity. They both grew up with a lot of money ideas that I typically see with poor families, which is we don’t plan further than a month ahead. How could we? We’re just trying to get by this [01:23:00] month. And so even though Ryan and Isabelle are making way more than their parents ever did, they struggle to change their psychology.
So actually, it’s been really helpful to hear how they grew up. It gives me a new sense of why they’re doing what they’re doing. Now that I understand how both of them grew up with money, let me see if I can figure out what to do about it If you two had a magic wand and you could rechart, recast the way that you show up with money in this relationship- Mm-hmm
what would it be? I
Isabelle: mean, if I had a magic wand, I would completely try to destroy what has become, it feels like, a very cemented parent-child dynamic. Mm-hmm. I don’t want… I, and I, and I-
Ramit: What would you do instead? Tell me what you would do, not what you wouldn’t do.
Isabelle: What I would like to do instead is have regular communication about major decisions and try to have equal contributions-
Ramit: Great
Isabelle: towards that. Even
Ramit: if one of you earns more?
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: Wow.
Isabelle: Okay. I mean, the, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve kind of gone back and forth on who- Yeah … [01:24:00] has earned more- Great … over the lifetime of the, the relationship.
Ramit: Okay. Yeah. Now let’s go back and forth right now in terms of what would be in your, your magic wand vision. Go ahead, Ryan.
Ryan: Yeah. I think, um, both of us, uh, contributing equally to discussions. Okay. Or it doesn’t even have to be equal. I’d just like to have some say, like maybe, like, take one key area and move forward with that. Yeah. Um, I, I would say that, yeah, we are used to one of us making more or less than the other. Like, she said she had a free ride.
I thought that was interesting because she didn’t through all of grad school. I paid for a little bit of your grad school, too. Hmm. ‘Cause I was working during that time period.
Ramit: That’s interesting.
Isabelle: That’s true. My tuition was covered, for what it’s worth. I had a job. It just wasn’t making as much as I did previously.
Why don’t you tell her,
Ramit: Ryan? Yeah, you better remember that big old check I wrote for you. That apartment wasn’t free.
Ryan: No,
Ramit: I don’t- Is that what you want to
Ryan: say? No, that’s not what I want to say.
Ramit: Okay. All right. Sorry, I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. I’m sorry.
Isabelle: It was $650, though, which-
Ryan: It was cheap. It was, uh- It was a [01:25:00] Midwestern university, so…
Ramit: What else would you want in this- Yeah … magic wand situation?
Isabelle: Um…
Ramit: It’s gotta be bigger than this, y’all. Like, I’m glad. I want you to have conversations where you contribute, but what else? It’s a magic wand.
Isabelle: I just wanna point out that even in his magic wand scenario, he didn’t say equal conversations.
Ramit: Yes, he minimized.
Yeah. You do, you do the thing that many people do, um, when they talk about their rich life. I’ll be like, “What’s your rich life?” They’re like, “Well, one day maybe I’d like to have, like, a beach house. It doesn’t even have to be near the beach. It doesn’t even have to have a roof.” “It doesn’t even have to have a door.
Just, I j- I just wanna be able to see sand somewhere on my floor.” I go, “What the fuck kind of fantasy is this? Rich life-” “… not minimal shit life.” Okay. Ryan?
Ryan: Yeah. I would actually like to… I’d like to be better educated, and I know that takes more action than anything- Okay … and I haven’t necessarily put in the effort.
Ramit: You wanna be educated or you wanna be fucking good?
Ryan: I wanna be, I wanna be good at it.
Ramit: All right, great. I wanna excel at it. Great. What else? ‘Cause I don’t… Like, I like education. I [01:26:00] am educated. Mm-hmm. But I wanna be good at what I do.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe educated’s the wrong word. What is the- I wanna understand what I’m doing.
I wanna understand my actions, and I wanna be able to make correct decisions.
Ramit: Good. I agree. Yeah. Go ahead.
Isabelle: And I think, again, in a magic wand scenario, I would, I just want to not, not be as stressed or worried about things- Mm-hmm … but also not see him being stressed or worried about things that I don’t feel are worrying.
Ramit: What
Isabelle: if he’s stressed or
Ramit: worried?
Isabelle: Right, and so then I
Ramit: think it- You wanna be the one who’s responsible for fixing it?
Isabelle: No, I think that’s, that’s part of it, is being able to, you know, say, you know, “Hey, I’m worried about this,” and try to understand or contextualize it in a bigger picture. Try to tackle, try to generate plans for maybe tackling that stress or worry instead of it just being this floating cloud that’s following you everywhere.
No clo- Like, I like to kinda-
Ramit: No clouds, that’s what I’m hearing.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: No clouds. Right. No clouds around laundry, no clouds around dishwasher- Yeah … no clouds around money, no clouds around career, no clouds around the house in [01:27:00] Mexico.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: It’s like just clouds everywhere.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. Let’s fix that.
Isabelle: Yeah, there’s a lot of things that we feel like we circle and circle and don’t- Ugh, … don’t get anywhere on, and- You’re
Ramit: indecisive.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Y’all wanna be decisive?
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: That’s what I would put if I were you. Right. Magic wand, we become a decisive couple. Magic wand, we actually like to talk about money.
Mm-hmm. Magic wand, when one of us has a problem individually, the other will support them, but it’s up to the partner to f- it’s up to them to solve their problem. They are an adult. They stand on their own two feet.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Because guess what? Y’all wanna be solving your daughter’s problems for the rest of her life?
Isabelle: No.
Ramit: No?
Isabelle: No. I would like to have her set up to be financially literate and be able to move- Yeah … on in the world herself.
Ramit: And emotionally literate.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: And all of the above.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: Well, she only does that if she sees mom and dad doing it.
Isabelle: Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
Ramit: Isabel and Ryan are not decisive, and I can tell it drives them crazy ’cause it’s driving me crazy.
Pick a simple decision. Now we don’t have to think about it anymore. Let’s execute. [01:28:00] I know I’m supposed to be talking about feelings on this show once in a while, but sometimes I’m like, can we just not? Can we just get this shit done and move on? Do what I say or don’t, I don’t care, but I can’t do this indecisive stuff anymore.
My challenge is to get them to make a decision today. Because if they don’t, they will walk out of here and be indecisive for the rest of their lives. Okay, so if you all… I love, I love the vision. Anything else in the rich life vision that you would wanna add? Travel
Ryan: I’d, I’d like to live without guilt for every decision I make-
Ramit: Good
Ryan: as far as- Yeah … on purchases go.
Ramit: How?
Ryan: Like, even when I make my biggest purchases that I put months upon months into months into researching and going over, ’cause I’m that type of person.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: I worry that I’m spending too much, or I worry about how she’ll think, which isn’t healthy. And, uh- Mm-hmm … she probably, she picks up on it, and then she feels like it’s too much on her, too.
Ramit: Well, she also says stuff that makes you worry, too, right?
Ryan: Yeah. [01:29:00] Yeah, that’s true. “Why’d you…
Ramit: W- we got $5,000 worth of coffee here?”
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Can I rephrase it? So I want to, for us to both be able to know what are the rules before we make- Yeah … a major purchase, both of us. Mm-hmm. And once we make that purchase-
Isabelle: It’s done
Ramit: it’s done. We only feel joy about it.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: I want us to be a team. I never want us to be jabbing at each other. Mm-hmm. I want us to be supporting each other. Sure, we may have to have difficult conversations. That’s normal, but I don’t wanna be jabbing. Right. Do you see the jabbing that we’ve even talked about today?
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Do you like it?
Ryan: No.
Ramit: No, it fucking sucks.
Ryan: No.
Ramit: I don’t actually th- I- No … I’ve heard you do it a couple of times- Yeah, yeah … in the examples. I don’t even think you enjoy it.
Isabelle: No, I don’t. I don’t, but then it comes out, and then I, I guess I don’t think about it, and that’s, that’s one of the things I was saying earlier.
Like, to hear, [01:30:00] to hear my words coming back out, out of his mouth is like, “Ah, shit.”
Ramit: Yes. It’s pa- Like, yeah … it’s physically painful for you. I saw you.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: And, and actually, I don’t mind that. Like, yeah, this shit is hard. It’s hard to hear. That’s why you were doing all these games and digressions and diversions.
Right. Our mind is amazing. It will do anything to avoid pain But sometimes that pain is telling us, “Oh my God, this is not right.” This is where getting help in comes from. This is where becoming a team comes from. All right, so what’s the rich life vision?
Isabelle: I mean, I had mentioned earlier in, you know, my… Our saving strategy right now is nonexistent, but I would like to keep continuing to travel.
I just don’t know how to do that yet. But- How many times
Ramit: a year?
Isabelle: Um, previously in the before times-
Ramit: No, I just
Isabelle: want an answer to my question … in the before times, once, once. Once a year. One international trip a year.
Ramit: Can part of your rich life be y’all answer questions directly?
Isabelle: No.
Ramit: Like, what the ? Because guess
Isabelle: what?
That’s fair. That’s fair.
Ramit: Remember how you said you spin?
Isabelle: Yes, yes. We’re spinning now. You are doing it right now. We’re spinning [01:31:00] out right now.
Ramit: What we do here is what we do everywhere.
Isabelle: So my… in, in my rich life vision, I would like to travel internationally once a year. Great. And I… Yeah, for myself and for my daughter.
I love taking her places.
Ramit: And Ryan, are you going or no?
Isabelle: He’s welcome to come if he wants, I suppose.
Ryan: Usually I go,
Ramit: yeah. What? What the fuck? What?
Isabelle: No, we’re, we’re joking. Yeah. That was a joke. He always comes.
Ramit: I don’t like that joke.
Isabelle: Yeah. That’s fair. I sometimes don’t know that you want to go where I’m suggesting going.
Ryan: I get that. I think we have different, like, um, goals. Like, I like day-to-day conveniences more than you do. Yeah. Like, you won’t spend anything on yourself, and then you’ll just plan a big trip and- Right. I’m
Ramit: sorry. Ryan, do you like when your wife jokes about going on vacation without you?
Ryan: She just did recently, but it wasn’t a vacation.
It was to visit family.
Ramit: Not my question. Do you enjoy when your wife jokes about going on vacation without you?
Ryan: No.
Ramit: Tell her that.
Ryan: I don’t like when you [01:32:00] talk about going on vacation without me.
Ramit: So please- That’s fair,
Isabelle: and I should not have done that.
Ramit: Okay. Thank you.
Isabelle: I’m sorry
Ramit: I don’t mind these things come up here.
I don’t mind it.
Isabelle: No.
Ramit: But I am glad because I think you may be realizing the amount of layers- Yeah … to unpack here, and I think you may be realizing you cannot do it on your own. Yeah. That, that’s not a normal type of joke or comment to make.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: And the fact that you know that Ryan struggles with being assertive-
Isabelle: Yeah
Ramit: is, like, a real problem, actually an opportunity for the two of you to work on it. For Ryan to say like, “Hey, wait a minute, that, like, felt weird,” ’cause if my wife made a joke about me not– I’m welcome to go, like, no. What, what is this? Yeah. Where’s this coming from? And then for you to not say those kind of things, actually say, like, more positive things.
I would love for both of us to do it. Any thoughts going through your head right now, Ryan?
Ryan: [01:33:00] No.
Ramit: Okay. Let me know if there’s anything you wanna say. I wanna make sure that your voice is heard today.
Ryan: For sure. Thanks.
Ramit: How come I haven’t cracked a smile in the last 15 minutes? I’m supposed to be talking about their rich lives.
Give me something! A pet, something with their daughter, anything. No. Money to them is just an endless checklist of things they need to do. One of the questions I asked Isabelle was, “What if you ever just took a couple hours to watch a movie?” And before I could even finish asking the question, she said, “Oh, I, I could never.
I could never spend two hours watching a movie.” Many people, especially kids of immigrants, know what this is like because what you saw your parents model was you need to be productive. Why aren’t you waking up? It’s Saturday. Okay, you slept until 8:30 AM, time to get up. Did you study for your SATs? Did you do Kumon?
And on and on and on. And so you don’t actually build the skill of simple enjoyment. In fact, if anything, you are [01:34:00] told because you are not being productive, you are wasting your time. So you accomplish things, and you grow up, and you go to a good school, and you make a lot of money and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And just like so many guests on this podcast, you do everything except learn how to live a rich life. That is what I’m trying to change for Isabelle and Ryan. I wanna pull back up the numbers in a second, but before we get to those- Mm-hmm … we need to make a decision because you got a lot of clouds floating.
Yeah. What’s the most important cloud that you need to push through right now?
Ryan: We need to put in savings for retirement or
Ramit: You do? How do you know?
Ryan: Because there aren’t none right now. There’s
Ramit: n- What do you mean? Your retirement has $175,000, and- Mm-hmm … your wife has a pension.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Do you even need to do that? Is [01:35:00] that the first decision we need to make?
Ryan: I suppose not the very first one.
Ramit: Let’s do the first one. What is it? I think it’s the job.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Yeah. What do you want to do about it? I…
Isabelle: Yeah. And I mean, I– that’s, that’s the first answer that came into my mind, but I’m also trying not to make that decision for him.
Ramit: Good.
Ryan: Yeah. I agree with that. I feel like I’ve already, like, tried over the past few weeks to pivot to more I don’t know.
I don’t wanna say more realistic ’cause I don’t know if they are more realistic to pivot, but more accessible options.
Ramit: Okay. So what do you wanna do?
Ryan: I’m looking for what I can find that would reflect my skillset and pay reasonably in my area that would give me better work-life balance
Ramit: Okay. Well, I hope it works out, but if what you’ve been doing for the last month or two is not working, what do you wanna do?
What are your options? Lay them out on the table.
Ryan: My options would be to be a stay-at-home dad for a little while.
Ramit: Okay.
Ryan: Um, I could take something dramatically below my [01:36:00] skill set, but I don’t know if that necessarily makes sense for earning potential. Don’t tell me
Ramit: what’s wrong, just tell me the options.
Okay. You could cut your pay. What else?
Ryan: I could… Oh, what else could I do? I could invest in education to further my career
Ramit: development. Maybe grad school or something like that. Yeah. Okay, good. What else?
Ryan: Um, I could I could invest in my previous business, which was going a little bit, but fell apart a little bit at the end.
Ramit: No. Oh, well, it’s an option. Four.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay, what
Ryan: else? It’s just an option. I’m not saying it’s the best option.
Ramit: I like that. You’re right. I stand corrected. That’s option four. What else?
Ryan: Okay. I could… Hmm
I could look at a new personal development venture or a new business venture.
Ramit: Yeah.
Ryan: It’s related more to- We’ll
Ramit: call all those business, whether old business or new business.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Ask your wife if she’s got any options that you haven’t considered. Do
Ryan: you have any options? [01:37:00]
Isabelle: I mean, the only one on that list that I don’t think either of us has considered is taking some other kind of job, right, like a retail job or-
Ramit: Oh, I think you mentioned taking a, a dramatic pay cut.
Well,
Ryan: yeah, that’s what I
Isabelle: said. Well, I thought you, I thought that meant like-
Ramit: Could be working at Target, could be working whatever. Yeah. That’s a- Yeah … huge pay cut. I think it all falls under that.
Isabelle: Okay. That’s fair. Yeah.
Ramit: Maybe one other option I might mention is you could, um, get help with your job search.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Oh, yeah. You could hire a coach. You could- Career
Ryan: coach, yeah …
Ramit: do… Yeah, there’s lots of ways you- Mm-hmm … you could get into networking groups, et cetera. Okay. So we’ve got quite a few options here. I love how diverse they are. In fact, one of them, like your options were so, um, unusual that all of us were like, “Whoa” at some point.
Mm-hmm. And I think that was really cool. How are you gonna make this decision?
Ryan: I think I need to look at the pros and the cons of each decision. I need to discuss them with her.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: And I need to kind of weigh that against one another and-
Ramit: Can I, can I suggest like [01:38:00] would it be possible for the two of you to make this decision in 60 seconds?
Ryan: No.
Ramit: No?
Ryan: I don’t think so.
Ramit: Okay. D-do you think it’s possible, Isabelle?
Isabelle: I think it would be possible to say yes and to stick with an alternative option for six weeks or eight weeks and reevaluate.
Ramit: I think the fundamental question here is, are you gonna be a stay-at-home dad or are you gonna find a job that makes over $50,000?
Ryan: Okay.
Ramit: Which one?
Ryan: Probably find a job- Okay … I think. I don’t wanna see her continue to struggle or take on more responsibility than she can.
Ramit: Okay. How long are you going to continue your job search the way it is before you change something?
Ryan: I think it needs to change.
Ramit: Great. You’re gonna change it immediately.
What are you gonna do first?
Ryan: I’ll look into options. I’ll look into options for coaching. I will look into options that are maybe a little bit more outside of the box.
Ramit: Let, let’s pick one at a time.
Ryan: Okay.
Ramit: Do you wanna expand your job search to jobs that pay $50,000 to $70,000 a [01:39:00] year?
Ryan: Yes, probably.
Ramit: It’s yes or no.
Ryan: I’d say probably seven, 60 to 70. 60
Ramit: to 70. You wanna expand by $10,000. Okay, great. You’re currently looking at $70,000 jobs. You wanna expand it to $60,000 jobs.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Great. Works for me. How long you wanna give that?
Ryan: Uh, the way things are moving right now, probably a month, but- A
Ramit: month. All right. And after that?
Ryan: After that, I’d wanna look into ways that I could move into a related career that requires different skill sets that I could pick up easily and bridge my existing experience into.
Ramit: Mm. Okay. Isabel, any feedback?
Isabelle: I mean, I think, I think that sounds like a good plan. Honestly, one of the things that I’ve been feeling lately is that we’ve been stuck in this cloudy holding pattern.
Like, if you were to just to make that as a decision and go for it, then we could just go for it. Or like, if you’re thinking about doing additional certifications, and [01:40:00] it’s going to require s- whatever number of hours a week, just knowing that and committing and… Like, I’m, I’m fully behind that.
Ramit: Okay,
Isabelle: cool.
We can do what we need to.
Ramit: You know, one thing I noticed is that when there is a lack of clarity- Mm-hmm … around money, around relational agreements, then, like, sometimes the worst of us comes out. Yeah. So like, for example, we have a rule in our relationship, let’s just say, anything below 50 bucks, we’re not gonna ask each other.
Mm-hmm. So therefore, if you text me about ice cream scoops, I’m not answering. And I’m also not saying, “Why’d you get that?”
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Whatever. Uh, uh, I’m not concerned. We don’t– We already have an agreement. Um, if it’s not clear about how long is this job search gonna go on before changing and what’s gonna happen next, then we start to become, like, very over, looking over the person’s shoulder- Mm-hmm
and like, “I don’t know.” We don’t want that. We want clear sets of rules. If it were me, this is what I would do. I would say, number one, im- starting immediately, I’m expanding my job search to jobs over $60,000. Number two, i- if after one week I am not [01:41:00] immediately seeing interviews, I’m getting a career coach.
Now, we need to talk about how much can I, we afford- Right … et cetera, but this obviously is not working. I’ve sent hundreds of applications. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. Mm-hmm. Need to get a coach. Number three, if after… I’ll go d- all the way down to $50,000, but after that, I’m gonna be a stay-at-home dad- Mm-hmm
for at least two years, and then I will reevaluate. Like, that’s how we make decisions. Boom. And then I go, “Isabel, are you cool with that?” A- she goes, “Yeah, but here’s what we would do as a stay-at-home dad. This is my expectation. What do you think?” Boom.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: What are you noticing, Ryan? I can see you taking this in.
Ryan: It’s, it’s more thought out. It’s, like, goal-oriented with timelines. It’s more like an OKR than anything.
Ramit: Exactly. Bring the OKRs into the relationship. Right. I know people say that’s fucking weird. Why use Notion or what- I don’t care. Make it systemic.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Should we look at the CSP?
Isabelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure.
Ramit: All right.
What do we need to change on this? Because o- on one hand, we’re at 83%. On the other hand, you say it’s okay. There’s a [01:42:00] couple things that jump out to me right away. Mm-hmm. What do you wanna do? Isabel?
Isabelle: I think that I need to… Well, I think that we need to solidify what we’re doing with savings and investments first.
Okay. Um, just because right now it’s this floating-
Ramit: Yeah …
Isabelle: nebulae of something. Um-
Ramit: Well, what are you
Isabelle: gonna
Ramit: do?
Isabelle: I, I would like to add some post-tax retirement savings to his account specifically, and I don’t know how much that is, but I am of the mindset that I would like to set up at least something now so that when he gets a job or if he gets more income, then we can redirect there.
Ramit: Where’s the money coming from?
Isabelle: Right now, it’s gonna have to come from guilt-free spending. I don’t think there’s any other- Okay … way of getting that out. So- And I, we don’t spend that much every month. I know that for a fact.
Ramit: Isabel, we’re talking numbers now.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: I want less stories. Sure. I want you to tell me the numbers to move around.
Isabelle: Can I add at least 150-
Ramit: Sure …
Isabelle: to his post?
Ramit: Yes, we’ll do that. Tax. That’s gonna come from guilt-free spending.
Isabelle: Yes.
Ramit: And we will put it up here. Okay. [01:43:00] Ryan, do you want to add something?
Ryan: Um, I was just saying that in terms of, um, investments, I don’t mind dipping a little bit into savings. Nothing dramatic. Mm-hmm.
But if it’s, like, under, like, 10,000, I wouldn’t be super concerned.
Ramit: You would dip into savings for what purpose?
Ryan: For starting investments if they have the potential to, to earn.
Ramit: Okay. What else?
Isabelle: I think w- when I, when I look at the savings, I want to be mindful of setting aside for a vacation, so I’m trying to think if I keep something to under 3,000 divided by 12, what, like 2,250 a month?
See, then, then we’re
Ramit: So let me point out what’s happening right now.
Isabelle: Yeah. My brain is-
Ramit: You’re- …
Isabelle: moving in a
Ramit: direction … you’re down to 13% on guilt-free spending- Yeah, and I- … which is okay.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: But if-
Isabelle: There’s- …
Ramit: Ryan is a stay-at-home dad-
Isabelle: Mm-hmm …
Ramit: there’s not really money for-
Isabelle: Yeah …
Ramit: vacation.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Right.
Isabelle: I know- So if-
that’s, that’s what I’m looking at as I look at
Ryan: I think, I think unfortunately there’s no way around it. I think it’s [01:44:00] the condo.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay, talk about the condo. What do you wanna do?
Ryan: I think it needs to be looked at as either a rental property, or we need to get more assertive with your mom as far as moving in.
Yeah.
Isabelle: W-
Ramit: what’s-
Isabelle: I’m in denial about
Ramit: that … what’s the, what’s the, what’s the Spanish word for, like, Ryan, but like Ryan who’s got a lot of swag? ‘Cause like- … Rico Suave is on the fucking prowl right now. What just happened? He’s like, “Yeah, we need to do this or do that, and it needs to happen fucking now.” I was like, “What?
Who is this guy?”
Isabelle: He has feelings about the condo.
Ramit: Yeah. I know. And I like it. Uh- Listen to what he’s saying. Yeah. Ryan, speak up. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, I just think that it either needs to be a rental opportunity and we temporarily move her in. Maybe she splits some time in Mexico a little bit.
Ramit: Look at her.
Ryan: Or she splits some time in Mexico a little bit and she stays with us, or we just need to get more assertive about having her look into options for moving.
Ramit: Who’s we? We need to get assertive? Is it your mom?
Ryan: It’s, it- [01:45:00] it’s Isabelle. Let’s go.
Ramit: Tell her. Tell her, “I need you to…” “
Ryan: I need you to be more assertive with your mom about moving the property in Mexico to pay off the condo.”
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Isabelle?
Isabelle: So I have a very hard time with that, but I also think it’s fair, and I know that at the end of the day, that’s what alleviate finances.
So can we set a timeline? Say something like, if there hasn’t been any movement in six months, she moves in, and that’s what it is.
Ryan: Right. ‘
Isabelle: Cause we, I mean, we need, you know, it-
Ryan: Right …
Isabelle: give her time to move in, and if not, this is what’s-
Ryan: Right. If there’s no movement as far as me finding employment or her-
Isabelle: Yeah
Ryan: then yeah. I think if I’m gonna be a stay-at-home dad, we can’t have the condo-
Isabelle: Yeah …
Ryan: effectively. What if you get a job? We could probably make it work then financially until she could sort out her feelings with the property.
Ramit: I, I’m, [01:46:00] I like this conversation. Mm-hmm. I would like to be a little bit more directive- Mm
because y’all are letting your mom’s feelings, which while I respect the dynamic, you have 83%- Yeah … fixed costs.
Isabelle: Yep.
Ramit: You have no savings, no money for vacation. Your guilt-free spending is getting chipped away.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: And if one of you loses your job again, we got problems. So I don’t know. I’m not satisfied with this six months, see how she feels.
If I get a job, it’s fine. Uh-uh. We have talked a lot about Ryan being assertive. Isabelle, what about you?
Isabelle: In terms of with my mom?
Ramit: Yes.
Isabelle: Oh, I have feelings there. I know I need to be more assertive with her, but I, I struggle with s- stressing her out, so I’ll just carry it.
Ramit: Maybe your daughter will do the same thing one day when she needs to talk to you.
Mom is always stressed out, so I better not bring this up
What do you think, Isabelle? Is it time to change this?
Isabelle: Yeah, probably. [01:47:00]
Ramit: Your mom is not a fragile flower. Your mom worked seven months a year, took care of the family finances, handled a lot of things. Your mom is not a fragile flower. Don’t treat her like that
Isabelle: Yeah, it’s very hard to not see her in that way. Mm-hmm.
Ramit: How are you feeling hearing this challenging?
Isabelle: Yeah Yeah, I think I keep feeling like I can reason myself out of it, but I also know that numerically speaking, that’s just not what-
Ramit: Yeah …
Isabelle: the story is.
Ramit: That’s right. And it’s not even just about the numbers. It’s… We can work with the numbers- Yeah … one way or another.
Yeah. It’s actually the two of you as a unit saying, “What kind of life do we want to live?”
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: And notice, it’s actually this is the moment Ryan, who has struggled with being [01:48:00] assertive, who’s in the dynamic of the parent-child, you, Isabelle, struggling with perfectionism, pointing back at him frequently, “Why don’t you do this?
How many days until that?” But now we have a moment where Ryan is actually quite assertive.
Isabelle: Yeah. “
Ramit: This is what you need to do.” And what, what is your mind telling you in the back of your head?
Isabelle: Like, I don’t know if that’s the choice I wanna make.
Ramit: Yeah. So actually, both of you have a lot of compassion for each other.
Yeah. This shit is not easy. Nobody wants to be told by somebody, “You gotta do this, you gotta do that.” Right. But actually, what do the two of you want?
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: On this one, I happen to agree with Ryan.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm. I
Ramit: think there’s probably a way to say it, you know? “Hey, we need to… Of course, we love your mom. Of course, we wanna help her out.
Of course. We are fortunate we can do that. We also need [01:49:00] to start putting ourselves first. That means the way we talk to each other.” Mm-hmm. “That means the way we make decisions together, and that even means something as simple as taking vacations together.”
Ryan: Yeah. “
Ramit: I wanna go with you, and I want you to wanna go with me.
I wanna put money aside so that we can do that. I also have a hobby. I wanna continue doing that hobby. Right now, we can’t do these things when we are paying this much, and it’s not that your mom is unable to, it’s that she won’t sell the house.”
Isabelle: Yeah. “
Ramit: So I need you
Isabelle: to do it.” Yeah, she’s dragging her feet.
Ramit: Yeah, she’s
Isabelle: drag- She’s been dragging her feet-
Ramit: She’s dragging her feet … for two
Isabelle: years.
Ramit: So, so Ryan- Yeah … you might say something like, “Isabelle, I need you to make this happen, and I know it’s difficult for you. You’ve never done this in your role. If you can’t do it on your own, get help.”
Isabelle: Mm-hmm. “
Ramit: But I need you to make this happen.”
Ryan: I need you to have a conversation with your mom, and I know that it’s tricky, and I know how much the property means to her- Yeah … and how much it meant to your dad. Mm.
Isabelle: But
Ryan: I also feel like she said herself that she’s happier when she’s here, and I think it [01:50:00] would mean more to her long term to have the condo-
Isabelle: Yeah
Ryan: Damn
Ramit: Honestly The two of you are really, like you’re doing the hard work right now How are you feeling, Isabelle?
Isabelle: I was sad.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. How come?
Isabelle: Oh. I mean, it’s this whole, right- It’s this whole being a person in… Wait a minute.
Ramit: It’s okay. Take your time. We’re in no rush
Isabelle: Sorry. It’s this, it’s this whole, you know, feeling like, and I just heard it described the other day, and I hadn’t thought about it that way, but being in a sandwich generation where I’m the caretaker for a young child but also the caretaker for a parent. Um, and it’s just a hard balance ’cause I know what is…
What I would like to do [01:51:00] for one is not what is best for the other or what is best for ourselves. Um, so it’s just a hard decision-
Ramit: Yeah …
Isabelle: to feel like I’m making.
But she was also so happy when she got that condo.
Ramit: Mm.
Ryan: I think, I don’t have as strong feelings about it obviously- Yeah … but I do think a lot of what’s going on with her is just that she had planned on retiring in that house with your dad- Yeah … so she’s dragging her feet on it more, before he passed.
Isabelle: Yeah, it was their dream to…
Ryan: I understand that.
Ramit: There’s a lot in that house, I’m sure. It’s not just a house. It’s not just a financial transaction.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: So there’s a way to honor that. There’s a way to acknowledge that. There’s a way to talk to your mom about that. You may not know how yourself, but there are plenty of people who can help you do that.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: But the fact of the matter is that the two of you, right now, are disconnected about money.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: And this is one of the big levers. This is one of the biggest numbers on here.
Isabelle: Yeah, yeah. [01:52:00]
Ramit: Let’s fast-forward for a second and pretend it’s 25 years from now, and I meet your daughter.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: And she comes on this podcast, and I ask her, “What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?”
If nothing changed after today, what would she say?
Isabelle: She would probably say something similar to what I said earlier
Ramit: Almost identical.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: Mom took on the responsibilities. Dad was kind of whatever. If he made money, he brought it and gave the paycheck. Yeah. All of that.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: Now, let’s say you walk out of here and you make some big, bold decisions.
Yeah. 25 years from now, what would she say? I
Isabelle: mean, I, I would like her to say that both of her… Like, hey, you know, when you’re in a partnership, both people contribute to the financial decisions in a partnership.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um, and I would also like her to see money as a, as a mechanism for a rich life or for, [01:53:00] you know, something that’s positive that allows you to do what you enjoy doing and what you find value and passion in doing, as opposed to what I feel like I grew up with, which was, let’s, you know, pay the bills and get everything done and try to save up for the next thing and so, yeah, you’re,
Ramit: you’re just- That’s what
Isabelle: your CSP is
Ramit: right now
Isabelle: bouncing along. Yeah. Yeah. So
Ramit: it’s okay, but it’s just treading water forever. It’s…
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah. Right now we’re in a treading water-
Ramit: What if she said to me, she came here and she said to me, um, “I remember my parents making a big change right around when I was five. And I remember this because they sat me down and we talked about it.
We played a game together. We had a little pie chart, and we put money in this and that. I remember as I got older, I started to understand that my mom, Isabelle, had to talk to her mom, and she had to have a really uncomfortable set of conversations. They were difficult, but actually it ended up being good for both of them.”
Right. “And I remember my dad, actually, [01:54:00] he participated in money just like my mom. They would talk about it. They would plan on where they were gonna go. He had this hobby of coffee stuff. He used to spend money on it, but he always said, ‘This coffee is what’s important to me.’ ” Right. ” ‘This is part of my rich life.
Yours is gonna be different than, than mine.’ ” Mm-hmm. What about that? I
Isabelle: mean, that would make me very happy.
Ramit: This is how you do it. Yeah. This is how you do it. You have these conversations now, and then you teach your daughter. You don’t shield her from money. It’s not meant to be shielded from. It’s not a monster.
You talk about it with her. Yeah. Age appropriate, but you get her involved. You let her know, “This is how I grew up with my mom. This is what my mom did.”
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: Ryan, same for you. Yeah. “I struggled being assertive. It wasn’t working for me. It actually caused a lot of fights when you were young,” tell your daughter.
Mm-hmm. “And so I had to change that. I went to this guy, saw his podcast, got a therapist, got a coach, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and, like, it really [01:55:00] changed things.” What do you think?
Ryan: Yeah. I think that’s, that’s probably the best move, definitely the best move to have her see me as more involved so she doesn’t have a similar dynamic in the future.
Ramit: Yeah.
Ryan: I also already know that I want her to see us both in the same way.
Ramit: As a team?
Ryan: Yeah, as a team.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: As is, I’m the one she approaches for secondary things a lot of the time.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: She’s noticed the dynamic already. Like if she wants- Yeah … to buy something, she will ask mommy and not daddy.
Ramit: Wow.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ryan: Even when I was the one making more, so it’s, that’s an even recent.
Ramit: Wow. Kids are smart. Yeah.
Isabelle: She already knows who to ask for certain things.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Kids are smart.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Without making big, bold changes, just glide- Yeah … right into recreating your childhood.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: Okay. Um, what do we wanna do on the CSP?
We can project this six [01:56:00] months out. What’s gonna happen with the condo?
Isabelle: So if we project six months out, I think we, in either case, we zero it out.
Ramit: Great. In either case. Love that decisiveness. Zero. Holy . Yeah. Fixed cost just dropped- I
Isabelle: know, and I
Ramit: don’t wanna- … to 66%
Isabelle: Right … admit that. But yeah. I know.
Ramit: Next. So
Isabelle: yeah.
Ryan: I mean, yeah.
Ramit: We now have $2,765 a month in guilt-free spending. What do y’all wanna do?
Isabelle: I’ll defer to you.
Ryan: And we’ll, I think we could probably reduce that to 20%, put the 10% in savings.
Ramit: Love it. Fantastic. Let’s do it. I’m gonna add another, let’s just say 700 bucks. Um, let’s add even more. Let’s add 800 bucks to investing.
Okay. Yeah, you’re down to 21%. Y’all, that’s it? That’s life for the rest of life? We can put the rest in
Isabelle: savings. No, I need to go on vacation. Vacation.
Ramit: Oh, okay. You wanna put it there?
Isabelle: Uh- How much? Well, uh, see now I’m, uh, I always [01:57:00] get stuck in, in reverse mathing how much I would need to go. So let’s say 350.
Ramit: 350 a month, so like roughly 5,000 a year, a little lower than that?
Isabelle: Yeah, yeah.
Ramit: All right.
Isabelle: Gifts we honestly do out of guilt-free spending, I would argue.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Um. That’s true. But then I don’t know what’s-
Ramit: I mean, I- …
Isabelle: what’s left
Ryan: Home repairs.
Ramit: I might question if you need to put $250 a month away. Mm-hmm. But-
Ryan: Yeah
Ramit: you know, it’s either here or there. Usually I like to see couples knowing their own retirement is dialed in- Right, right … before they start putting 250. 250 a month at a young age can actually be quite consequential.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: So just to zero it out and just to show you what would happen, all right?
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: I would question not having anything going into the long-term emergency fund for home repairs.
Ramit: Oh yeah, good idea.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Fine. Let’s put it there. Home repairs, 250. That’s smart. Boom. So now you’re saving… Yeah, I agree. Well, let’s keep in mind your, um, savings account is $68,000, which is 10 months or so- Yeah.
Yeah … 11 months [01:58:00] of savings. That’s solid. Yeah. That’s nice.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: That’s nice. And by the way, this is all on one income.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Ramit: You wanna do another income?
Isabelle: Yes. That’s,
Ramit: that’s- Watch
Isabelle: this.
Ramit: Let’s say 3,500 post-tax. I’m being conservative here.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Your fixed costs drop to 47%, and now you have $5,000 left- Yeah
per month.
Isabelle: Yeah. Right. Which was that, I mean, three… Yeah, yeah. That’s like a 50, $60,000 job.
Ramit: Yeah. Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: So what does that tell you? We could take the CSP numbers off screen. Yeah. What does that tell you?
Ryan: It tells me there’s flexibility in what I wanna do. Like I don’t even- Yeah … have to necessarily pick. I could probably be comfortable if we got rid of the condo, just taking a part-time job, and then being the father figure the rest of the time.
Ramit: Exactly. Yes. You have options. Seeing the numbers helps you see it, but what I’m seeing, what I just saw right now is like the clouds just cleared.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Holy shit, I could work part-time. I could do 50K job, 60K job. I could be a stay-at-home dad. Whatever.
Isabelle: Right. There’s a lot [01:59:00] of, uh, options.
Ramit: There’s a lot of… The two of you now get to decide clearly.
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: Right.
Ramit: And have we thought about how much you’re actually gonna have in the future?
Isabelle: I don’t know a number, honestly. I know what percentage of my salary it’ll be for pension.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: I have no idea for him.
Ramit: What percentage is- At all … is that for you?
Isabelle: Um, it’s about, it’s like 68 to 70% of what my salary will be at retirement age.
Ramit: Okay. Do you know what that salary will be, ballpark?
Isabelle: Uh, it’s probably gonna be around 150, 160 at least.
Ramit: 160?
Isabelle: But it’s hard to… It’s, yeah.
Ramit: Conservatively, you think?
Isabelle: It’s conservative, yeah. Okay. That’s very conservative.
Ramit: So 70% of $160,000 will be your pension.
Isabelle: Mm-hmm.
Ramit: Okay.
Isabelle: Without including Social Security or anything else, like the 403, I’m making small contributions to.
Mm-hmm.
Ramit: I ran some quick calculations for you back of the napkin. So they include your pension, 70% at 160K- Mm-hmm … which I think is conservative. Mm-hmm. They include a $3,500 a [02:00:00] month net pay for you, Ryan, which I think is conservative as well, and to be able to make those investment contributions that we talked about.
How much do you think you would make in income when you retire? Right now, you make $151,000 a year.
Isabelle: I mean, my own back of the napkin math wants to say somewhere between one to 120.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. Okay. Ryan?
Ryan: Uh, I wanna say 150.
Ramit: Okay. According to our calculations, $187,000 a year. What do you make of that?
Isabelle: Um, I mean, that means that I can only calculate what I know for mine, I think.
I don’t, I, I don’t have any idea what, what his- Yeah … looks like.
Ryan: I do think that might be conservative for me too, based on my previous income.
Isabelle: Yeah, ’cause you were previously- The graphic can be an area … putting in a lot more. Yeah.
Ramit: Mm-hmm. So what
Isabelle: does
Ramit: it mean, the fact that it’s 187,000, probably more? I
Isabelle: mean, I see it as we’re going to continue to be [02:01:00] comfortable in retirement.
I don’t have to worry about it.
Ramit: Mm-hmm.
Isabelle: We’ll be at or above our current living… Well, inflation, but I-
Ramit: No, this factors inflation in
Isabelle: already. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think we’ll be at our, at our current lifestyle-
Ramit: Okay …
Isabelle: which is comforting-
Ramit: Mm-hmm …
Isabelle: I think.
Ramit: Ryan?
Ryan: Yeah. It, it’s comforting. I think that I agree with that.
That’s, that’s a comfortable number.
Ramit: Okay. Does it mean that you need to take on extra work in summers?
Isabelle: Probably not.
Ramit: Yeah. So let go of that.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: What else does it mean you do not have to do?
Isabelle: I mean, it probably means that I don’t have to be doing, uh… It’s not just the, the teaching in the summers thing. I pick up a lot of extra work, just, uh, just here and there and everywhere because there’s opportunities for it, and I tend to be the person of like, “Well, if I could make this extra thousand, I’ll do it.”
Ramit: That’s because of how your parents grew up.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramit: And you are still following in their [02:02:00] footsteps. Right. In… Which can be good, but it’s also destructive. It’s not healthy- Yeah … to be following a rule book from 45 years ago that doesn’t apply to you today.
Isabelle: Right. Right.
Ramit: So you actually get the freedom.
Isabelle: Yeah, of time. Yeah. Can you- Time, time in making those decisions.
Ramit: Can you imagine just sitting and watching a full
Isabelle: TV show? No, absolutely not, no. Yeah. I have, I have a very hard time doing that. If I’m not actively doing something, I feel like I’m wasting my time.
Ramit: Gosh, I wonder where that came from.
Isabelle: My friends and I call it toxic productivity.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: It’s… And I, yeah.
Ramit: The only thing that has to, absolutely has to happen-
Isabelle: Mm-hmm …
Ramit: is what? What needs to change with your CSP?
Isabelle: That condo.
Ramit: Yeah.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: That’s the one thing.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: So wow. What, what I’m seeing here is each of you walking out of here with one big piece of homework. Ryan, what’s yours? [02:03:00]
Ryan: To change my job search and be supportive towards, um, moving her, towards moving the condo with her mom.
Ramit: No. One. And I don’t want process, I want outcome. What are you going to have? What is your piece of homework that you are going to get?
Ryan: I’m going to support her in approaching her mom about moving the condo.
Ramit: That’s more important than you getting a job?
Ryan: Looking at that right now, it kind of is.
Ramit: Hmm. You don’t need it.
I
Isabelle: think, I, I think the condo is my responsibility.
Ramit: I agree.
Isabelle: Y’all- I think, I think that’s, that’s my homework-
Ramit: Exactly …
Isabelle: is to either get moving on selling that house-
Ramit: Mm-hmm …
Isabelle: or moving her into our hou- Mm. Like, that’s, that’s it. Ri- I think that’s, that’s it.
Ramit: Yeah, and Ryan’s like, “And not the second one.” That’s what Ryan wants to say.
Isabelle: Yes. I-
Ramit: Why don’t you say it, Ryan? It’s okay. It’s your house, too. I know. I- Be like, “I love your mom, but no. Option one.”
Isabelle: Right. Right. Yeah. I think that would [02:04:00] drive us all a little bit crazy. Um-
Ramit: So actually I think that’s really important.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Don’t give yourself two options when option two is not feasible.
That’s true. There’s only one option.
Isabelle: That’s true. Yeah.
Ramit: So it’s, yeah. That’s the one that has to happen.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Okay? That’s your homework.
Isabelle: Okay.
Ryan: Okay.
Ramit: And you know the timeline too. What, what did you agree on?
Isabelle: Well, I had suggested six months.
Ramit: Great.
Isabelle: From, from moving a property perspective. In
Ramit: other words-
Isabelle: It just takes time
Ramit: your payments stop in six months.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah.
Isabelle: End of the year, roughly.
Ramit: So there you go. Yeah. Now, what is your one piece of homework? I don’t care. Get a job. Yes. And how much does that job need to pay? Over 60,000. Fine. 3,500 net per month, and you all are good.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: Whatever it is. That’s it. Clouds are cleared.
Any questions?
Ryan: No.
Isabelle: My, my, my mild question to you is I feel like you feel hesitant about that lower cutoff That value, value tied to income
Ramit: Ask him. Don’t [02:05:00] tell him, ask him.
Isabelle: Well, that’s my question. Are you going to really be comfortable in a job that pays 50 or 60,000?
Ryan: I think I’ll be comfortable with it if it’s local and it means b- a better work-life balance.
Isabelle: Okay. So we can prioritize that
Ramit: I respect that.
Isabelle: Yeah.
Ramit: What do y’all get out of better work-life balance? If you’re not taking on all these extra gigs and you have a more comfortable work-life balance, what do you get?
Isabelle: I think we get more time together- What are you gonna do with it? … honestly, and as a family.
I think maybe not be stressed all the time. Like, right now there’s a lot of things that we do where, um, we’re always, we’re always running around or we’re always trying to go from the one thing to the next. What do you get?
Ramit: I want the vision. What do you get? I-
Isabelle: I wanna watch a movie on a Wednesday. I get more ti- yeah.
I, I wanna get more time and relaxation.
Ramit: Mm.
Isabelle: And- Really? … maybe sp- well, yeah, space to do the things that I want to do- Yeah … as opposed to the things I have to do.
Ramit: Beautiful. It’s just hard. That’s a beautiful vision.
Isabelle: Yeah. [02:06:00]
Ramit: It’s pretty hard for you to say, huh? I would love that. I would love it for the two of you and your daughter to just be like, “We’re just going for a walk.”
Right. “We’re just gonna go play. We’re not in a rush.” That would actually be the coolest thing of all. It’s not about the money. You have the money.
Ryan: Right.
Ramit: Make a couple big changes and y’all are good. That’s the stuff your daughter sees, but even without your daughter, that’s the stuff that makes life-
Ryan: Right
Ramit: joyful. Gosh, there was a lot of courage from Isabelle and Ryan today, and I just wanna acknowledge how much they had to go through just to come here and to stay here. I think Isabelle kind of expected me to go to town on Ryan and tell him all the things he was doing wrong, and I think she quickly discovered she actually plays a part, a very large part, in this dynamic.
It’s uncomfortable to have a mirror reflected at you and realize, “Oh my gosh, I might be a part of this problem.” That is not easy, and to her credit, she [02:07:00] came back in here and she said, “Let’s keep going.” Incredibly courageous. One of the bravest things I have seen on this show. Ryan has taken a backseat to money, and I am very happy to say that by the end, you notice that he seemed to find his voice.
And if anything, I want more of that. I want them both to sit up straight and speak openly about the things they want, about the things they need. Now, it’s gonna take a lot of work. This is gonna be hard, but it’s also one of the most valuable things they can do for themselves and for their daughter. And now, let’s hear their follow-ups.
Isabelle: Hey, Ramit. Just doing a quick follow-up. Uh, the most surprising thing about our conversation, I think, was how uncomfortable the whole process made me feel. I’m the one who submitted the application. I’ve listened to many, many episodes of the podcast. I’ve always thought of myself as someone who’s comfortable talking about money, and honestly, it was just deeply uncomfortable in a lot of ways.
I think that’s because, uh, Ryan and I were [02:08:00] really forced to grapple with the sometimes unhealthy patterns of communication and dynamics that we’ve fallen into over 12 years of marriage. Um, all of the things that we should say that are being left unsaid or implied or hidden kind of in, in jabs or just these little ways that we talk to each other and about each other.
Um, I think for me it was really eye-opening to, to hear someone else’s perspective on those and to really think about how we can improve and better our communication as we move forward. My biggest takeaway for, for me personally, is that I think I’ve been hanging onto that house in Mexico emotionally just as much as my mom has, which is why I think I’ve been really reluctant to push on finding a solution for the condo, which is just one of the biggest hits to our fixed costs.
I’ve been trying to think about, you know, how do we increase our income? How do we lower other expenses? How do I set, you know, travel and retirement and everything on the back burner, and I’m realizing that I really can’t be doing that. Um, so I have already sat down and had a very, very [02:09:00] long and very emotional conversation with my mom about this.
We, we have a plan. We have a plan in the next six weeks to, to list the house, and it’s only six weeks ’cause we’ll both, I think, need to be in Mexico, so there’s, there’s some delay there in traveling. Um, but, but we have a plan, and I think she’s, she’s on board. She understands, and I was very grateful for that.
Um, and I’m very grateful to you and the team for, for this experience. It was great. Thanks.
Ryan: Hey, guys. Uh, Ryan here with a quick update. Yeah, so I think my biggest surprise from the whole conversation was on two different levels. Uh, the first one was just how checked out I was on our finances. Um, I was just afraid of confrontation or making mistakes, and I kind of just ended up sending a lot of those decisions Isabella’s way, and it was causing her a lot of stress.
Um, the other surprise was just how long the condo had kind of been in limbo, and so that was kind of a huge surprise for me. I realized that it’d been a while, but I wasn’t sure that it had been quite that long. I think the whole process [02:10:00] was pretty uncomfortable, but we’re definitely making steps on moving forward with that.
Um, I’m gonna be a lot more present in our finances going forward. Um, we’re scheduling discussions about money regularly, which is really good for us. I’m spending my job search for another one just kind of to look at variable incomes there. I do have a few things in the work that are my similar level though, which is good.
I’ve been interviewing and excited for that. But I think at the end of the day, I just need to kind of move forward and see what I can find and just be there for Isabella and make sure we make the right decisions together as a team.
Isabelle: It’s been I think about seven weeks since we spoke to you, and so we were just recording a quick update.
Um, we have a couple of really exciting new updates, so I’ll turn it to you.
Ryan: Uh, yeah. So I guess the most, um, [02:11:00] exciting or most dramatic, uh, change is I’ve received a job offer, which I’ve accepted for $150,000 per year, which, um, kind of resets our finances a little bit more and makes things a little bit less tight.
Isabelle: Yeah. So we’re, we’re really excited about that. Um, we’re kind of figuring out what that looks like for us now and kind of how we’re gonna be moving forward. Um, on my end with my homework, we are or have been talking to my mom a lot about selling the house in Mexico, and I think she has kind of accepted and come to realize that’s something that we need to do, and so we are moving forward with that.
Um, planning to travel there… Well, she’s planning to travel there in September to really start moving on that a little bit more. I think the other thing that I’ve realized and that we’ve realized through this process is that even if it’s no longer strictly a financial decision, even if we can afford the cost, um, with the new job, it’s still something we need to do just from a practical perspective and a personal perspective.
So that is still something that we plan to do in the next six months or so hopefully. [02:12:00] Um, I think moving forward, the biggest thing and the biggest mindset shift has really been thinking through and discussing together how we wanna, um, plan things and, and spend money consciously. You know, we’re gonna be kind of adjusting to a whole new income and a whole new approach to how we, we tackle those decisions, and I think we’ve been having a lot of good conversations already about how we’re going to do that.
Ryan: Yeah, and I just wanted to add to that, that we’ve been having a lot of these conversations, and on that note, they have been actual conversations. Um, we’ve been a lot more s- reciprocal to each other’s feedback, and we’ve been having meetings regularly discussing our finances and what we wanna do, what we wanna save for, um, what our financial goals are and things like that.
Isabelle: Yeah. Yeah. So I think we’ve, we’ve already kind of sat down and, and made a preemptive plan for what we’re gonna do once we s- once he starts the job, and I think we’re, we’re in a good place. I’m really hopeful for what the [02:13:00] next, you know, while’s gonna look like for us. So thank you so much. Thanks.
Ramit: If you wanna know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K.
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